To be annoyed at The Guardian largely because it is such a dump solution - private schools

[Dlwch276]

So as part of their recent excessive coverage of a book which attacked the private school system (written by someone who went to private school) The Guardian has suggested adding VAT to school fees.

Asides raising more money via tax i don't see how this would make the system fairer? From what I've seen the logic is that parents who are motivated to pay £20k+ on fees would force state schools to improve if their children attended them. Mumsnet is full of posters at their wits ends trying to affect change at their local state schools. No-one that I've met at our small private is wringing their hands that the local state schools are terrible and that this gives their children extra advantage.

Surely to improve educational equality either we all need to pay more tax to change class sizes or poorer students need better access to private education. In NZ private schools receive the same student allowance as state schools - wouldn't this be a better solution for students not able to access private education? For everyone to sit the entrance exam and then private schools to have to accept the student allowance as fees for those who can't afford it?

"Apparently it’s impossible to remove charitable status from private schools. Nobody can, I assume, justify that status- it’s just legislatively difficult to remove it."

It is legal.

The only way under the law as it stands is by winding up the charity.

I have yet to see any proposals for how a new law wouid be framed to allow the transfer of a charities assets to private ownership

You could certainly legislate to provide that education is no longer a charitable purpose, but that would have all sorts of undesirable consequences beyond immediate gratification of messed up left wing types who are incapable of seeing wood for trees.

Are you another who's failed to grasp the benefit to the state of independent schools?
I love this argument. So silly of us prices to not realise that you privately educate for our benefit. Why thank you kind benefactor.
Nothing to do with creating life long connections which give you an unearned advantage over everyone else then. Or do we just not understand that you ‘earned’ your success and we’re all just lazy fuckers.

prices =proles

You could certainly legislate to provide that education is no longer a charitable purpose, but that would have all sorts of undesirable consequences beyond immediate gratification of messed up left wing types who are incapable of seeing wood for trees

What wood? What trees?

“Tax shouldn't be used punitively against someone more successful than you are.“
Such a powerful and nuanced argument!

@echt No. We do it because you usually get what you pay for. Staff, peers and the community

You're buying what running a car buys, choosing your company. So not saving the state money.

The taxes you speak of are exactly like the taxes people pay for private transport they never use.

From what I have seen at my DCs private school the vast vast majority of parents are no more well off than the average middle class family, they don't live in big houses or drive expensive cars, they are just ploughing all their money into school fees.

Those parents are also already subsiding the state system by not having their kids in state school and by on average paying more tax than the average family.

I agree with the EU (for once) that vat shouldn't be added to any kind of education, whether that's private school, language lessons, musical instrument lessons or dance classes, all things that enrich our skills as a country. Why should the government tax absolutely everything.

A fairer system would be for parents to either be able to pay for private school out of pre-tax income or for you to be able to allocate you £3k per child allowance to school fees to make private school more accessible for more people. But neither will happen as it's not a vote winner. Sadly I also think that private schools would just increase their fees accordingly and nothing would change.

Here’s an idea if they want to keep their charitable status then they have to take in 50% of pupils on full scholarships based on merit. They’ll still be educating 650000 children but maybe not yours. Seems fairer or should advantage only be given to those with money.

Those parents are also already subsiding the state system by not having their kids in state school and by on average paying more tax than the average family

They no more subsidise the state system than a car driver does who never uses public transport. Education taxes are not hypothecated.

We currently have a household income of £17,600 + tax credits. When our son is of primary age and I can go back to work properly we will be sending him to pre-prep.

I will litterally be working to send him to private school. Why? Because £5k a year including all breakfast/dinner clubs and holidays clubs is CHEAPER and easier than wrap around care for state school all year round and will enable me to get fulltime employment without stress.

I'd like to know how this sort of bullshit policy idea would help people in my position? We'd actually have a household income of £30k because of private school. We are currently low earners and it will help us. Or is that the problem? Am I missing something?

Because it's a private purchase. Like a car. Or a nanny. Or a CM.

@gamerwidow are you aware that a good number of parents sending their kids to private schools are working class/lower middle or are you just making sweeping assumptions?

My husband is a docker earning around minimum wage ffs. We will be prioritising education as the local pre-prep at £5k a year (including all clubs) is CHEAPER than wrap around care at state schools and will enable us to work more. Even at £8k a year when he's older it's a bargain. Because I'll be able to work full time too!

But fuck us right?

Here’s an idea if they want to keep their charitable status then they have to take in 50% of pupils on full scholarships based on merit. They’ll still be educating 650000 children but maybe not yours.

'Maybe not yours' then I'm not paying so who pays?

FiveRedBricks will you be able to do the same at secondary school though? I doubt it. We considered doing the same for primary it does make economic sense once you factor in childcare . Wouldn’t it be better for your children though to have a fairer chance at a decent secondary education where it really matters? To have the same chance to make those connections based on their ability?

'Maybe not yours' then I'm not paying so who pays
maybe they’re not actually worth the money after all if it’s not an elite set going there?

We have excellent state schools where we live. Great teachers, great results for children of all abilities. Being London it has an extrmely mixed demography. Despite the top sets doing as well as the selective privates there are parents who send their kids private simply because they don’t want their kids in the same school as the ones who live in the council estates.

It is nothing to do with the standard of education, it is social segregation.

@gamerwidow yes because the secondary is £8k a year and I will be working full time then too? What are you even on about? Seriously.

"Here’s an idea if they want to keep their charitable status then they have to take in 50% of pupils on full scholarships based on merit. They’ll still be educating 650000 children but maybe not yours."

So like grammar school then. As we all know, grammar schools are full of naturally talented poor kids and not full of tutored better off kids.

Scholarships based on merit are even worse for equality than the current means tested bursary system (which is, at least, means tested).

FiveRedBricks
Private secondaries where I live are at least 8k a term.

There’s some deluded, politics of envy on this thread

Those people magnanimously subsidising state Ed by sending your children private: look at how you benefit from your workforce having been educated. Every penny your staff make for you or your company has been supported by state Ed at some stage. Every customer or client who made enough money on their state education to spend on the business or company you work for....

Same for private medicine : it is the NHS that keeps your workforce, customers, the people who service your cars, teach your own kids.. the NHS keeps them all going.

So selfish and self absorbed to view this in an individualistic level. And not accurate either.

And @gamerwidow it will be based on his ability as they have an entrance exam at senior level. Just like all the local grammar schools/11+ he'd be going to if he went to state schools.

What 'connections' is he going to make over any other local kids? In his class of children mostly from lower middle class families? As a high number of private school places are occupied by these days. An offer at an apprenticeship in an estate agents or private dentists? 🤨

I think you have a totally outdated view on 'private' schools tbh.

And I am not envious: I went to private school.