An argument against a hunter?

[alotofquestionsallthetime]

My BIL (SIL DH) is a hunter. He spends THOUSANDS going to Scottish Isles, Norway, etc. to hunt animals. He pays people to track the deer (literally no idea what this means) and then he shoots it. I find it really sadistic.

Now, we are all meat eaters (except PIL as of recent) and I understand there's a bit of hypocrisy here. So I just would like to debate the topic.

From my perspective, shooting an animal for fun when the meat is readily available in a butcher/supermarket is WEIRD. You get joy/achievement/accomplishment out of hurting an animal? I would entirely understand if you needed it to survive or if the meat wasn't as available (i.e. people living in the middle of nowhere) but he does it purely for fun. He has said this.

Thing is, if I had to kill my own meat I probably wouldn't eat it. I could still eat fish, I don't feel much emotion towards a salmon (is that bad?) but I would struggle killing any animal. I think people who do it for a livelihood have to condition themselves and it is a necessary job that someone has to do. That is entirely different.

So what is your opinion on someone who kills animals such as deer/goat/other wildlife depending on country purely for fun?
(FWIW, he does eat the meat)

If he eats the meat then I don't see how it's any different that eating farmed meat from the supermarket tbh. Either way its a dead animal that someone had to kill.

Are you sure the deer doesn't get eaten and hunting is often done to control numbers to protect the environment as natural predators have been hunted to extinction in the past.
You're right though you're extremely hypocritical, the deer you mention had had a happy life living in the wild and you're concerned about it but you're happy to buy cheap meat from a supermarket that certainly won't have had as happy a life as a wild animal or meat that has been ethically sourced

Totally agree op . I find it disturbing that people enjoy hunting and killing animals.
Says a lot about a person .

Hunting to eat is fine. Hunting for fun is not.

Given how we treat animals reared for huma consumption it’s difficult to argue that the hunter is worse than the meat eater. Most animals reared for human consumption are kept in less than ideal conditions, get transported long distances to slaughter and are not always slaughtered humanely (an de I am being optimistic here - the reality is much worse for many animals). The animals he hunts have had, presumably, a decent life.

The direct killing of an animal for fun cannot be justified, but I am not so sure it is so much worse than paying someone to kill an animal on your behalf so you can eat it when there are other food sources available (and better for the environment).

are you equating an animal living in the wild to farmed animals? Because you're argument collapses in a heap right there and then.

I have no issue with hunting for food. I have ever issue with hunting for sport and wallowing in the kill.

I suppose there are a couple of schools of thought about this. Hunting to eat is still viewed as a necessity by some cultures, and even as a vegetarian I can understand they need to do this. However, trophy hunters are twats, even more so if they are hunting endangered species.

As long as the animal has a good quality of life and is killed cleanly by a good marksman, and as long as the species is not in danger, the welfare is superior to a farmed animal and it does not seem unethical to me. I don't think that any hunter takes genuine joy in hurt; I think it's a joy of pursuit. I'd rather pursue with a camera but I don't have a problem with a quick clean death after a good albeit shortened life.
You should really be trying to support higher welfare types of farming - genuinely free range eggs, locally reared beef and lamb tend to be very ethically produced by comparison with cheap misery-raised pork and chicken. Also look at wild-caught vs intensively farmed fish - the two are incomparable.

The UK is overpopulated with deer, they have no natural predator since wolves disappeared from the UK. Deer have to be managed whether you like it or not.. Plenty of information available on Dr Google if you don't believe me. Deer stalking is what you are referring to which simply means a very long walk usually to shoot a deer humanely. The meat (venison) is always consumed, ten fold healthier than farmed meat and one less deer in the population and the money paid by your BIL goes back into the economy.

Yes like a Pp said, focus your efforts on campaigning for improved farming methods, now that is an area of huge welfare concern.

I have been on a stalking trip with my husband once. We climbed 10 miles up and my husband shot the stag with a single bullet. He was dead within a count of three. A better death than going to an abattoir. The meat was immediately put into the food supply.

Deer have to be managed whether you like it or not
I do think thiuugh there's a difference between someone doing a job, seeing shooting the deer as a functional move to achieve X and someone who gets off on the shooting and killing, you gets a rush from knowing they've killed. It would def be a no tick on an OLD profile!

There is an overpopulation of red deer in the Scottish highlands which leads to welfare problems, as I understand it. It certainly affects the environment, preventing reforestation. More trees would be beneficial to the deer, giving shelter but the deer's grazing stops them growing. Culling is necessary because the deer have no natural predators, since we eliminated wolves and lynx (bring them back I say). Shooting deer is less stressful than taking domestic animals to slaughter, when done skilfully, one minute the deer is alive, the next it is not. I thought that most stalked venison was used for meat, but I could be wrong. However, trophy hunters tend to stalk male deer which is not effective in population control.

Crossposted with lots of faster writers!

Did he feel like a man then, Abra?

I don't eat meat - but I have no problem with hunting for food and ethically sourced meat (OH is a farmer)

I think really we need to be focussing on eating/buying local food with high welfare standards. The problem with buying "readily available supermarket meat" is that often it is cheap because of low welfare standards and no traceability - often imported without UK welfare standards.

A wild animal has had a good life, contrary to belief there are plenty UK farms with high welfare free range animals being raised. Wild fish over farmed.

One thing that always gets me about this kind of thing is that animals that have to be legally controlled - ie squirrel - and are also perfectly good meat sources - are sent to landfill, and we have people who are going on shoots where again, animals are wated, while we have people in this country relying on food banks. I think it is crazy and an absolute waste. Also people buying imported meat when we are raising much healthier and happier in this country

I’m a vegetarian, so that’s the perspective I am coming from. I think your perspective is totally hypocritical.

Farm animals have a significantly worse quality of life than animals that live wild, and the slaughter process is inhumane and frightening. When you eat meat, you are accepting that the price you have paid is the terrible suffering of an animal.

Hunting is a horrible sport and I hate it. I don’t understand the impulse to kill an animal. But that animal has had a good, natural life, and (unless botched) death is quick and happens without the fear and anticipation experienced by animals at a slaughterhouse.

Hunting is also sometimes of environmental benefit, as we are overpopulated with deer and rabbits and this causes habitat damage. Farm animals, on the other hand, are very bad for the environment.

So while I share your view that hunting is abhorrent, it’s certainly no more abhorrent than the meat industry. You aren’t morally absolved by virtue of you not having been the one who actually killed the animal.

Did he feel like a man?

He bowed his head and was quiet for a moment.

As he’s a former serving soldier and extremely good sportsman he doesn’t need to do much to boost his masculinity.

I'm with you op. I eat meat but I couldn't imagine wanting to go out and kill for fun, let alone pay good money to do it, not my idea of a fun holiday I much prefer my wildlife living. I detest people who hunt for "sport", they scare me.

I don't eat a lot of meat but don't feel so bad about eating venison as it is killed in its own environment and I wish the stress of an abattoir was avoidable for other animals.

"Imagine you’re a deer. You’re prancing along. You get thirsty. You spot a little brook. You put your little deer lips down to the cool, clear water. BAM! A f—in’ bullet rips off part of your head!" (My Cousin Vinny)

Without a doubt, some hunting is very cruel. Fox hunting, for example, where the animal spends time being chased and fleeing, repulses me. I couldn't imagine causing any kind of fear to be stimulating.

Shooting birds strikes me as a very damaging "sport" for the environment. First, birds are bred to be shot, overloading the existing eco-system, often destroying the balance of fragile habitats. Then natural predators, like hen harriers and other raptors, are poisoned to protect the stock. Then loads of people turn up, the birds are frightened into the air, shot and often left to rot. I don't see the point, personally.

If he eats the meat then no big deal it's actually a much more sustainable method of eating meat than buying it from the supermarket where it has been mass farmed etc

Also depends on if he actually enjoys watching an animal be tortured/be in pain etc. If it's just a one bullet deal then not much of a problem IMO.

are you equating an animal living in the wild to farmed animals? Because you're argument collapses in a heap right there and then.

I came here to say exactly this. Hunting and killing your own meat is infinitely more ethical than subjecting animals to life and death under commercial farm conditions.

TO CLARIFY: He hunts purely for fun, but the bi-product of the fun is the food. He travels and spends money they don't even bloomin' have to go far away to places with different animals to kill them. At the moment it's deer (strange types I didn''t know of) and would happily kill others, I know he's hunted rabbits etc. He then poses with it like a trophy.

Why is killing animals for fun worse than making someone else kill them because you like the taste?

Honestly it seems like such an arbitrary distinction to me. I know people don’t like to think about the way animals are killed for food, but it’s the reality of the situation.