An argument against a hunter?

[alotofquestionsallthetime]

My BIL (SIL DH) is a hunter. He spends THOUSANDS going to Scottish Isles, Norway, etc. to hunt animals. He pays people to track the deer (literally no idea what this means) and then he shoots it. I find it really sadistic.

Now, we are all meat eaters (except PIL as of recent) and I understand there's a bit of hypocrisy here. So I just would like to debate the topic.

From my perspective, shooting an animal for fun when the meat is readily available in a butcher/supermarket is WEIRD. You get joy/achievement/accomplishment out of hurting an animal? I would entirely understand if you needed it to survive or if the meat wasn't as available (i.e. people living in the middle of nowhere) but he does it purely for fun. He has said this.

Thing is, if I had to kill my own meat I probably wouldn't eat it. I could still eat fish, I don't feel much emotion towards a salmon (is that bad?) but I would struggle killing any animal. I think people who do it for a livelihood have to condition themselves and it is a necessary job that someone has to do. That is entirely different.

So what is your opinion on someone who kills animals such as deer/goat/other wildlife depending on country purely for fun?
(FWIW, he does eat the meat)

@sleeping this is my point. I love Lapland, one of my favourite places. They cull deer every year due to balancing the eco system. Not an issue. Paying a lot of money to kill an animal for fun is just WEIRD.

Big game...tigers, lions etc. No way.
Deer... well to be honest up here in Scotland they're almost akin to vermin. there's too many and controls are needed. A clean shot and then used for food. Meh I've no issue with that.

He eats what he kills so I don't see the problem.

Arguably it's more ethical than people who'll buy pre-packed meat in supermarkets but who would never get involved in the actual slaughtering process.

Worth considering also, is that often, organised hunting locations and facilities exist for the benefit of the environment, and all that live on/from it.

They accept that some animals are going to be hunted, but charging people for the right to do so means that they are able to do their other (some would argue, more important) work.

Myself, I'd prefer that none were "hunted", but I am not sure that will ever be possible. A skilled marksman taking down a deer with a well placed shot to the head is certainly preferable though to a fox being torn to shreds by a pack of dogs at the end of a distressing chase.

Just my opinion, and I'm not in any way suggesting I am fully informed!

Also because some of what I said seems to confuse people, he doesn't just hunt deer. Our whole family (who hates that he does this including his DW) wonders if he'd kill a more exotic animal like a lion etc. He is that way inclined.

He hunts deer as that's what is legally allowed in Scotland where he goes with the friend he goes with. He also shoots birds and went on the 'Boxing Day Hunt' this year and hunts foxes.

I am a meat eater in the sense that I try to eat from places that are more assured but in general I tend to only eat fish.

Also he does it for fun, he has said this. Not for the meat, not to assist in the wildlife care, he does it because he enjoys the thrill. To me, that is entirely sadistic.

I can't say that over family dinner so instead I just say I think it's wrong, of course my argument is immediately refuted by 'well you eat meat'

well, he sounds more of a trophy hunter, then, which is shit.

But I think people are arguing with your assertion that 'why would anyone hunt and then eat meat when you can buy meat from the supermarket' - as you can see, there are very good reasons for not eating supermarket meat.

I completely agree with @LilaJude.

Most farmed animals have an absolutely shit life. Then the slaughtering process is horribly cruel. Anyone who objects to hunting (obviously with the caveat that the kill is quick and clean) but eats farmed (particularly intensively farmed) meat is a total hypocrite.

That said, he doesn't sound like a particularly nice guy. Getting pleasure from killing something is horrible.

I don’t really have an issue with shooting deer rabbits grouse etc or fishing “wild” rivers even though I know the rivers and grouse moors are very definitely not wild.
It’s not something I’d do myself, (maybe fishing I guess) but the animals have a far better life than any farmed animal. I don’t think it’s a good argument to say hunting is bad “if you don’t need to” as that seems to assume buying meat from a supermarket is better and I don’t actually think it is.

As long as the animals he kills end up in the food chain (even if not eaten by him personally), I have no issue with it. I have more objections to people who distance themselves from the meat they eat and only think of it as something shrink wrapped in the supermarket. I actually respect people who are willing to hunt and kill their own meals. As long as it is done humanely.

Trophy hunting is just abhorrent though.

EDIT* (wish you could edit the OP)

He is TROPHY HUNTER didn't realise that what it was. I was explaining he does eat the meat and I understand how it's ethical etc. HOWEVER, I am talking about the trophy side of it :)

of course my argument is immediately refuted by 'well you eat meat'

And rightly so. You don’t really have a leg to stand on.

This is a good opportunity for you to examine your position on meat eating. Not saying you should go veggie, but as animals are something you seem to care about it might be worth considering? If only so you can win the argument at dinner...

Proper hunting is a valuable conservation tool.

I have pretty much exactly the same opinion as @LilaJude and also do not eat meat/animal products.

I think hunting is grim - the mere thought of having to kill something was part of the reason I stopped eating meat, because I felt so hypocritical and and decided no food was worth that guilt for me. So, YANBU to think that he's sadistic for getting joy from killing animals, that is something I will never understand.

As you probably expect, I also think YABVU to think you're better than him because you don't kill your own food.

"He then poses with it like a trophy."

Just like any Woman with her expensive leather handbag/shoes.

You are a hypocrite and rather than see it from his POV you've decided why he does what he does, you've decided his reasons are wrong.

The animals on your plate have lived a much worse life and had a much worse death, so tell us your reasons for being a part of that and we'll judge if it's any worse than his reasons.

I do understand from your posts that your issue is mainly with him gaining satisfaction from killing animals, so besides the whole 'eating meat' argument, yes I agree that is reprehensible!

But he hasn't gone to Africa yo kill elephants, which is what you are now insinuating that he might do. Hunting deer is fine. Of course he's not doing it because otherwise he'll starve to death so clearly there is interest in the pursuing.

Meat from supermarkets is fucking disgusting and anyone who eats halal meat or cheap Thai chickens is worse in my eyes than someone who shoot and kills deer sustainably.

The trophy hunting is horrible I agree but I have no problems with people who hunt for food. I'd much rather eat an X that had nice happy life in the forest before it got shot.

Sometimes I feel hypocritical that I eat meat but probably couldn't kill it. Actually I'd probably be OK killing a fish or a chicken so maybe I should just eat those.

@birds
Well i've never posed with a handbag or shoes? Bit sexist.
His POV? His pov is that he enjoys the thrill of the hunt, what else is there to understand?

@lilajude I agree completely. I have cut down the meat I eat but if I was out at dinner and the only option for V was a mushroom I'd definitely eat meat over it. I would probably say I'm pescatarian but wouldn't tell someone not to cook something for me because it has meat in it. I should try harder, at least for our next convo

@Faz he hasn't gone to Africa to kill an animal, he wouldn't afford to be able to. He just isn't against those that do it, he supports it, hence the inference. Doesn't take a genius on that one.

Also, even the endangered species thing only goes so far.

Many people visit Longleat, they've just allowed a second endangered tiger to die.

I was watching Life at the zoo (Chester zoo), they allowed the death of a rare turtle.

There's a lot of forced breeding as well.

There are lots of male exotic animals killed via zoos, not rare and we don't have to breed them in the numbers that we do.

Behind your visit to the zoo, there's a level of cruelty supported.

@Camomila I completely agree! It's so annoying.

I have already said I'm a hypocrite. I've also been told there should be no issue with eating a dog in these discussions as well. Which on one hand I can see (it's a meat form) but also NO.

Well why the fork should he have to justify himself to you anyway? You are completely making up the bit about Africa as clearly this thread isn't going the way you wanted.

@birds yeah I hate zoos, I don't ever go to them. I also don't drink cows milk but that's for a few reasons apart from cruelty.

God, please don't have a conversation with him about it. I have relatives that do this to us about various things that we do that they don't agree with. It's a bore and just an excuse to have a row imo.