Brownies, a waste of time!

[Growuppeople]

My daughter has been with brownies over a year, they have been on one overnight trip. My DD wants to do scouts but she’s so shy around boys. She wants to do camping, building campfires, adventures! Not knitting or art and crafts! I pay nearly £50 for uniforms, £10 for the “new book” and now I have to go bowling with them. I thought they would learn independence, health and safety among other important life skills. Am I wrong in thinking I’m wasting mine and my daughters time, she is learning absolutely nothing, or is she just with a rubbish group? What do all your brownies do?

Scout troops have to be open to both sexes.

There are exceptions for religious units (mainly Muslim); and I don't know much about Sea Scouts either.

tomhazard you don't have to be a full time leader to offer additional adventurous activities to the unit...

I was a brownie leader years ago and there was a lot of requirements re licensing for overnights, cooking and first aid. I doubt the requirements have relaxed so it may be that they don’t have the right qualified people in the area. Districts often teamed up to make sure they have all roles covered.

It may be op that they are missing someone with a certain qual and are just awaiting training

Lots of children, including girls, enjoy art, craft and baking and this demonisation of those who do as boring, wet and unadventurous is equally as tiresome and damaging as the outdated notion that outdoors is for boys and sitting nicely is for girls.

FWIW our Brownies is excellent, led by the girls and includes a very wide range of activities, outdoorsy and crafty . it's also the cheapest activity our children do by a wide margin, and how you manged to send £50 in a uniform is baffling. why don't you get involved by running a second hand uniform service for your group?

Well said PinkOboe. Personally I loathe craft but my daughters love it, and their Brown Owl is fortunately a craft genius, and plans many other fantastic activities besides. My elder daughter is actually too old for Brownies now but didn't want to leave so Brown Owl kindly let her stay on as a 'helper'. Both my girls love Brownies and the unit has an insanely long waiting list as it's so popular.

Plus whichever muppet designed the Rainbows and Brownies uniforms

God yes. I wish Rainbows would just go back to the olden days and have a single tabard as uniform, I go over whatever they happen to be wearing.

Instead of a uniform that costs £40 for the full set!

Drspouse no doubt but I already volunteer my limited spare time to another charity and help with reading in my daughter's school. As a teacher I spend enough time with other people's children so it's not my voluntary activity of choice.
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The leaders who choose to volunteer for this might benefit from some training in provision of varied activities, or perhaps ask the parents of their packs what skills they could offer for one off sessions.

My daughter doesn't actually mind decorating biscuits and colouring, but I see other packs have more varied activities so some training from higher up the organisation for all packs might be worth a thought. It seems a shame that's it a bit luck of the draw what girls will be offered.

If those bemoaning the demise of Scouting as a boys-only activity want to set up something new where they can keep the numbers up to break even then absolutely no-one is stopping you.

As others have said, Scouting had to open its door to girls or go under, as not enough boys were signing up. Girl Guiding, on the other hand, chose to remain single sex back when they knew the difference between sex and gender and kept its numbers up. Because girl-only spaces are proven to be beneficial for girls.

tomhazard we get vast amounts of training. Vast.

“The leaders who choose to volunteer for this might benefit from some training in provision of varied activities, or perhaps ask the parents of their packs what skills they could offer for one off sessions”
They get loads of training already- and anyway the activities are based as much as possible (within sensible constraints) on what the kids want to do. Maybe prime your child with some ideas?

My dd1's brownie pack was awesome, still is but she moved on to scouting when she finished there. Partly because there is no guides section near enough and partly because she preferred their programme. She's currently doing her pioneering badge.

As with any group, it always boils down to the ability and preference of the group leaders.

Dc3&4 attend beavers in the same group as dd1 (scouts) and ds1 (cubs). Their programme is a lot less adventurous and knowing a previous beaver lodge before we moved where ds1 did rafting and all sorts, I know that it's down to the leaders not the organisation.

But they still get to do fun things and have the enjoyment of social learning so it's a small sacrifice for a couple of years until they join cubs.

Op, if your DD is not enjoying it, then leave!
And let the ones who will enjoy it have her place.

I was a Guide Leader for years long before DD and I had a very large unit, that was permanently full with a waiting list. However we were known as the unit that did all the fun stuff: cookouts, camping, archery, abseiling, tracking etc, it was because the Guides I had chose to do that sort of thing, and so we attracted the girls that wanted to do those things. We were permanently short of help, and I had a rigid parents must help routine - you HAD to volunteer to assist at least 3 x a term, luckily I had some great parents some of whom also went on to be leaders. It's far far harder now, as you have more rigid Safeguarding procedures in place, DBS checks and so-on. So volunteers are always needed and very welcome.
Definitely volunteer, you can help steer the choice of activity.

If you want a more active group for your child, it's worth looking at other activities, I'm not sure how young Sea Scouts enrol for example, but also look at eg Pony Club as they now do a non riding membership which would cover for Triathlon - shooting, running, swimming - some groups are very active on this front and you can join young..

This thread is really crappy.

I've been in Guiding for 30 years this year. I'm also a Primary School teacher. Leaders have more opportunities for training than teachers do in my county and experience.

Meetings here are based on what the children want to do. Sometimes they choose knitting, sometimes they choose cooking on campfires. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand, as it's not rocket science.

A female only space is fantastic for a lot of girls. When I was in Brownies/Guides I was also given the opportunity to attend Cubs/Scouts but I wasn't keen because I loved being able to be myself without a male presence. It's important for many young girls. Not all, but many. Keep that in mind, perhaps.

I'm another Brownie leader and this sort of thread always makes me a bit sad. I think most of our girls have a great time, and in almost 20 years as a young leader, unit helper and then assistant leader, have never seen a girl "kicked out" in any way.

It's so often presented as a dichotomy of either crafts and cookery (boring, girly, bleurgh) or camping and being outside all the time (what the boys do! So it must be cooler!) The Girlguiding programme, and I assume the Scouting one, is about more than either of those! Some of it, like the "know myself/express myself" theme, is hard to get a real feel of immediately, so I imagine some people might think we were "doing nothing/playing games" in those meetings but they are still developing useful skills.

Some things like campfires and outdoor activities are very dependent on location and facilities. Our meeting place has no suitable place for campfires, so we can't do more than toast marshmallows over tealights. From ~October to March it's too dark to do many outdoors activities so we have to stay inside. We try to go out when we can over the summer, they've done their cycling badge, geocaching, map-reading around the local area, penny hikes, bug hunting in the park and lots of outdoor games. But they also do some cooking, some arts and crafts and a fair bit of putting on mini dramas/dances. Doing adventurous activities outside the meeting hall just isn't possible due to a)cost and b)availability of extra helpers.

We've just booked our Pack Holiday for the year, we'll be offering archery, orienteering and shooting. So far only 3 girls have signed up, and we leaders are worried we might not get enough to make it viable!

DD did Rainbows, Brownies and Guides, DS1 and DS2 did Beavers, Cubs, Scouts and Explorers. They all had a great time. When they were in the Guides and Scouts they did the same jamborees, Winter Camps and hikes and orienteering organised by the local university.

But please, what's wrong with learning how to knit?

some parents are hugely down on anything traditionally feminine (except when their DSs want to do it, in which case it's fine). I think they think they're hugely progressive and anti-gender stereotyping when in fact they probably reinforce gender stereotypes more.

But please, what's wrong with learning how to knit

I learned to knit and crochet in Guides as well as how to change a plug, sew on a button, use a drill and put up a shelf.

My Year 6s love it when they get to learn to knit and sew - I try and do it once a year and some will stay in and sew/knit at playtime. The boys tend to really enjoy stitching on plastic canvas.

On ages, I know some Sea Scout groups have Beaver packs younger than we start - we only start with Cubs in our group and you must be 8.5 to join the Cubs (as you must be 12 to go on summer camp in Scouts, so normally a Cub from 8.5 to 11.5). I presume those with Beaver packs are similar to normal Beaver ages.

Sometimes its not entirely just down to the Leaders not having an interest in running certain programmes/activities, but having enough leaders to do outdoor activities (higher numbers of leaders needed outside than indoors), or specific equipment is not available, or qualifications not held by sufficient leaders, or facilities not being available close enough at a low enough cost for your group (taking into account those who can afford to pay, and how to cover those who can't without leaving them out).....

Admittedly, it could also be a lack of interest by leaders - just saying it may not entirely be that.

Brownies seems like a completely outdated institution these days. (Not saying every single group, but certainly quite a lot) I was in Brownies in the late 80s/early 90s and we were being read books about how to be a good helper to mummy by doing the housework and sewing and baking etc. Basically being trained to be a good little housewife. My Aunt had been a Brownie in the 50s/60s and nothing had changed since then.
By the sound of things not much has changed even now.
The cubs, when I was a Brownie were going camping, on sports activities etc. Scouts allowed girls to join in the late 90s, but I was too old by then.

that is utter rubbish, Dorothy. Have you even bothered to read anything other than the OP's posts?

As with any group, it always boils down to the ability and preference of the group leaders.

^^ This plus in our current area the group size as well - they have all got very small.

Even scouts have had issues with numbers and missing older ones which has meant they've curtailed many activities they’d normally do.

I had hoped first aid and more trips would be part of Brownies and Guides as they were for me – but that’s not happened even so meeting up with other children – at Brownies level all at different schools -has been positive experience for my girls on top of other activties they do.

was in Brownies in the late 80s/early 90s and we were being read books about how to be a good helper to mummy by doing the housework and sewing and baking etc.

I was a Brownie in the 80s and we never had any of that.

We made candles, peppermint creams, did knot crafts, bit of knitting lots of running games when we were in the first location with huge hall and lots of first aid with dummines doing CPR.

DD2 group don't do a huge number of badges but few they have done have had nothing to do with housework.

I was in Guiding in the 80s and we didn't do any "housewife" shit. We did practical, useful things as well as had a lot of fun. The emphasis back then was that girls can do anything they want to.

I was fascinated by how involved (or not in a couple of cases) my Cubs were in the sewing session I ran before Christmas. 3" felt stockings. A couple of types of decoration to sew on (mini jingle bells or large coloured beads), a few girls sewed patterns using the embroidery thread for sewing them up as well. And an easy way and a harder (more decorative) way to sew them together.

All 20 who were there made a stocking by the end of the session - there was no demand for a game (almost unheard of in our group - Zombie Apocalypse is a weekly demand!!), some stockings were very decorated, others were quite plain, but the boys were as engaged, if not more so, than the girls.

We found the same whenever we have run "backwoods cooking" and given them a choice of ingredients to make their own meal. The girls do something quickly and rush out to "play with fire" (couple of leaders supervising this very carefully!!), while the boys are the ones concocting still, making cake mixes to cook in orange peels, or having involved discussions about seasoning their onion/carrots/potatoes/mince mixes.

This is not in a deprived area - it just seems that they don't get that opportunity in general.

And that's not meant as a generalization - there are boys who love messing with fires and just poke a stick through a sausage to get out there as fast as possible. And girls who will be making the most perfect mix possible for their food before going outdoors and the wind blowing their hair. But it is always surprising how the genders DON'T conform to their stereotypes on such events.

It's about giving all the Cubs a chance to do something they are interested in. And exposing them all to things they may not have otherwise done. But not demanding that they all do everything, or get everything perfect. Just try everything, and learn to say "no" back to us as well (we always find ways for those not wanting to get involved in specific activities to do something else - a photographer or water carrier when we go "bog hopping" instead of getting muddy, someone who always rows the larger boats rather than getting into the smaller punts and going swimming, someone who sweeps the floor and organizes the game for afterwards rather than completing an art activity they are not enjoying/understanding, a couple to organize supper (hot chocolate and biscuits) when campfire singing has got too loud/boisterous late at night....)

Extraordinary how people pile in with bollocks on Scout and Guide threads. Nice safe target, I suppose. And everybody hates a volunteer, don’t they?