Brownies, a waste of time!

[Growuppeople]

My daughter has been with brownies over a year, they have been on one overnight trip. My DD wants to do scouts but she’s so shy around boys. She wants to do camping, building campfires, adventures! Not knitting or art and crafts! I pay nearly £50 for uniforms, £10 for the “new book” and now I have to go bowling with them. I thought they would learn independence, health and safety among other important life skills. Am I wrong in thinking I’m wasting mine and my daughters time, she is learning absolutely nothing, or is she just with a rubbish group? What do all your brownies do?

[BertrandRussell]

It’s interesting that in Russia medicine has become a very woman-heavy profession, and has, apparently, simultanouusly become lower paid and lower status than it was. I don’t have any research data for that, just pure anecdote. But anecdotes that I have had from several sources.

[drspouse]

you managed to argue against yourself spectacularly there.

I did? Do tell. Do you really think that Rwanda is a shining beacon of equality, up there with Norway and Iceland? Or do you think perhaps this scale is a bit poorly specified?

Of course, you don't believe in any gender inequality, anyway, so I'm not quite sure why you're placing any store in a measure of it.

[Ragnarthe]

Not even sure what this bizarre argument now going on has to do with whether Brownies is "rubbish" or not. Especially given that the op was not complaining about the girls only space.
Also still would like to point out again that not all STEM jobs are in Universities/research labs etc.

[drspouse]

@BertrandRussell it's almost that way in the UK.

[interLibrary]

@BertrandRussell

If you increase the workforce then the value of the work decreases. Basic Economics, no?

The issue with the number of women in medicine in the UK is that they work fewer hours. The top roles still go to males who put the effort and time in.

According to Medical Womens Federation

[RiverTam]

your misogyny's shining through with that last post, inter.

[drspouse]

And all the others.

[SmarmyMrMime]

Girl Guiding is doing a lot to encourage girls into STEM as well as all that craft and cooking (and outdoor adventures if your leader is inclined )

[budgiegirl]

The issue with the number of women in medicine in the UK is that they work fewer hours. The top roles still go to males who put the effort and time in

Surely true in many industries? And will continue to be so while there is gender inequality. Because, ultimately it’s still women who take longer maternity breaks, still women who are more likely to go part time after having a family, still women who are more likely to sacrifice their career.

If you increase the workforce then the value of the work decreases. Basic Economics, no?

Sorry if I’m misunderstanding, but you’re surely not suggesting that women shouldn’t consider careers in medicine because it increases the workforce and therefore pushes the wages down? Should the little women just stay at home and leave it to the boys?

[RiverTam]

I'm not talking about the link, inter. I'm talking about you.

[BertrandRussell]

With you there, River Tam.

[drspouse]

Work fewer hours. Don't get the top jobs. Don't earn as much.

You ever heard of presenteeism?

Working longer hours doesn't mean doing more work nor does it mean putting in less effort. In fact, rather the opposite:

www.brinknews.com/working-fewer-hours-makes-you-more-efficient-heres-the-proof/

[MarieVanGoethem]

On the plus side, nice seeing so many Girlguiding volunteers about the place...

To add to the litany of NABALT, since the start of this academic year my (inner London, no outdoor space, 2-Leader) Brownie Unit’s activities have included:
• a day at a local campsite working on both our Region’s Bushcraft badge & the new Camp Skills Builder (Stage 2) - though we let the Brownies help cook a meal on the fires they built, so they may’ve got a bit ahead of themselves there... they also got the opportunity to do lots of unfettered running about & we went for A Walk In The Dark
• a meeting spent doing things like archery, rifle-shooting, climbing, abseiling, & exploding a range of inflatables like slides & tunnels & bungee runs (local-enough Scout camp & reasonable price: YAY!)
• collecting bedding, food & toys for our local cat shelter at the instigation of 2 Brownies doing their Charities badge (same meeting did involve The Dread Craft, also face paints & indeed sparklers, but those were for Diwali, not International Cat Day - both things, however, the girls chose to celebrate)
• taking a train up to town to get a boat back down the river & visit the Maritime Museum before walking under the river on our way home
• completing another of the new Programme’s Skills Builder badges including trying out BSL; using the phonetic alphabet & making cup & string phones
• doing one of the Brownies absolute favourite things which serendipitously made it into the new Programme, to wit, fashioning costumes from (curated...) contents of Leaders’ recycling bins
• a meeting doing “fun science” (“you can choose Snowy Owl, you have really good ideas for things” - no pressure, ever...) including making lava lamps, flying balloon rockets across the hall, sending messages in invisible ink, & building towers with lollysticks & plasticine
• taking part in UK Parliament Week
• ice-skating at the Natural History Museum & visiting the Museum itself
• looking at single-use plastics & sustainability; & making wee bug houses from plastic bottles

• making (& quite enthusiastically testing...) trebuchet-style catapults (small ones, for personal use)
  • doing four fifths (thus far!) of the First Aid Stage 2 Skills Builder badge (thankfully our Brownie Helper survived both falling off the Shard & being impaled by a unicorn horn...)
  • celebrating the Lunar New Year
  • going to one of the special screenings of Mary Poppins Returns held for Girlguiding members at Odeon cinemas across the UK
  • participating in a visit from the Science Museum Outreach Team
  
  
  If any of my Brownie Parents have recognised me from that list, please remember we’ve no meeting on Friday as I’m away to Belfast for a meeting about the future of Girlguiding. (Is anyone else on this thread taking part in the Strategy2020 meetings btw?)
  
  My wee cousins do a fair bit of craft at Squirrels (for 4-6 year olds, no idea why it’s only in NI) & Beavers & they love it. The Beavers & Cubs where I do Brownies aren’t so much for craft & that works for them. Because we are all different & special in our own way.
  
  It’s possible that your daughter’s Unit hasn’t really started using the new Programme yet OP. Has your daughter found an Interest Badge she’d like to work on at home? She could read through the Skills Builders to get an idea of what they involve & which ones she thinks she might be interested in doing & ask her Leader about it.
  
  And of course, as several other people have suggested, please do volunteer to help at the Unit to improve things.

[Becles]

@MarieVanGoethem and any guiding folk there's a few of us and we lurk in a small corner of mumsnet

We're in the process of developing a new mumsnet skills builder. Join us

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/extra_curricular_activities/2775707-guiders-staff-room-part-3?msgid=84894203#84894203

[Mamaryllis]

Lol. Sorry to have wandered off and missed your accusations of sexism @interlibrary
When you have worked and volunteered with teenage girls as long as I have, and established a safe space where girls are free to be themselves and don’t feel the need to modify their behaviour in any way because of the presence of the opposite sex, and facilitated discussions about peer pressure, relationships, and citizenship, and how being female affects the way these kids move through the world, you might feel differently. I’ve had teenage girls confess to deliberately flunking maths to protect their attractiveness to the boys in their class.
So yeah. I really do believe that a single sex space is incredibly valuable for girls. It’s somewhere they don’t have to worry about how ultimately attractive and fuckable they are.
Not sure I said boys couldn’t have their own space. But if it’s one that someone is going to get a grip of toxic masculinity and get rid of the incel culture where girls who don’t put out are vilified, I’m all for it.
And none of the beavers, cubs and scout groups I know would survive without their female volunteer force. It’s that bloody caring trope. Men are largely too important to raise youth - let’s have the women do it.
When I was running my cub pack, I ran one evening on whatever the vaguely domestic badge was (sewing a badge, ironing your scarf, hoovering a rug, making a hot beverage, answering a phone and passing in a message) and a male scout leader walked past and yelled to my (all male) cubs ‘oi, what are you lot doing all that women’s work for?’ and wandered off laughing.
See, if all male groups will encourage that shit, I don’t support them. It hasn’t gone terribly well so far, what with the all male golf clubs, gentleman’s clubs, masons and whatnot encouraging their memberships towards actual equality has it?
I suppose if you are into 1950s stereotypes, then all male groups are a good idea. But unless you drag them into the 21st century and get string make leaders who are going to challenge the more toxic elements of masculinity, I’ll question their worth.
Ultimately though, IDGAF. The girls are my concern.
I can raise my own sons, but I cannot challenge toxic masculinity in an all male space. I don’t have the penis for it. If you do, crack on. I’ll support you every step of the way.
Michael Conroe is worth a look.

[Mamaryllis]

Conroy. Fat fingers. Man Box.

[RiverTam]

Awesome post Mama!

[nevernotstruggling]

@Mamaryllis agree with everything. You have nailed it thank you x

[Sukochicha]

@Mamaryllis you totally rock

[Ali1cedowntherabbithole]

I recognise that some of the stereotyped groups exist at a local level, but I think a lot of the time it's due to self selection.

If Brownies reputation is that they do crafts, they will attract girls who like crafting. When planning the programme, the girls ask for craft activities...so the group do a lot of crafts.

Our cubs ask for team games and outings. We still make things if it's a wet Wednesday in January.

Someone earlier also criticised leaders for not doing the qualifications to take children away on camp. Myself and the other cub leaders at our pack all have full time jobs and other commitments, yet manage to find 2 hours a week to entertain your child. None of us are able to offer weekend camps due to our personal circumstances.

If taking children away on camp is that important to you, feel free to volunteer.

[Wolfiefan]

DD is off to Brownie camp today and is SOOOOO excited. She will have an amazing time and the volunteers are fab people who will look after her and offer her the opportunity to try loads of new things.
Brownies rocks!

[OwlOfBrown]

Someone earlier also criticised leaders for not doing the qualifications to take children away on camp. Myself and the other cub leaders at our pack all have full time jobs and other commitments, yet manage to find 2 hours a week to entertain your child. None of us are able to offer weekend camps due to our personal circumstances.

This!

As a Brownie unit leader with a family and a full-time job, please bear in mind that Brownies ranks at least 3rd in my list of priorities. My children/family and my job will always come first (and second).

[BiddyPop]

I agree with Ali and OwlifBriwn above about priorities and training.

I’ve managed to do my necessary safeguarding training (re-doing that in May as all the sooner ones are Monday’s and I am already doing a course on mondays this winter - related to Scouts). I have done my first aid training last autumn, as I do a lot in work so only needed a 1 day refresher to get the outdoor essential elements - that was held on a Sunday. I had to release my other 2 leaders and get spare Leaders to do an outdoors activity while they did their first aid (both needed the full 2 days) and that needed the Den so Cubs couldn’t use it.

I have done a lot of training through Guiding and Scouting over the years, also been lucky enough to have great leaders myself who passed on lots.

But I cannot get onto the main training courses since the system changed, as I need to arrange cover for my Cubs before I can book it and there is such demand that they’re booked up before I can do that.

And that is before I even think about, after a long week at work, and dH working away, and running around after DD, whether I really want to spend another whole weekend away from them. And NOT getting food shoppping done, house cleaned, laundry sorted, have a proper shower rather than the 1 minute versions midweek, .....

And taking into account the cost of the training as the Group can only pay the actual fee of the course. The courses I’ve had half a chance to get onto are on the other side of the country and mean driving 3 hours on Friday night, and the same on Sunday night to get home, with none of that cost covered by anyone except me.

Me - a volunteer. Who gets no money towards my petroleum bringing Cubs on hostel and camping trips 3 times a year and usually 2-4 hikes relatively locally as well (less and 90 minutes away). Either I or another leader usually end up taking pre-trips to reconnoiter that area to check trails are still passable etc a creek or 2 before.

I don’t get paid time or petrol for going to the Scout shop for the badges or going out for other equipment/supplies we need - only the actual receipted cost of those things.

And I get no money for actually showing up each week with an idea and materials to develop the Cubs in some way related to the overall programme, keep them entertained and keep them safe. Let alone the time I put in on the paperwork....which most parents have no idea about!

We have 1 lovely parent who gives us each a bottle of wine at the end of the year and we also got a box of chicks this year from another. That’s the sum total of our “payment “.

For something that is actually far more than “an hour a week” (or 90 Minutes in winter and 2 hours in summer)!