Brownies, a waste of time!

[Growuppeople]

My daughter has been with brownies over a year, they have been on one overnight trip. My DD wants to do scouts but she’s so shy around boys. She wants to do camping, building campfires, adventures! Not knitting or art and crafts! I pay nearly £50 for uniforms, £10 for the “new book” and now I have to go bowling with them. I thought they would learn independence, health and safety among other important life skills. Am I wrong in thinking I’m wasting mine and my daughters time, she is learning absolutely nothing, or is she just with a rubbish group? What do all your brownies do?

^
Also whenever there is a thread on here there is always someone who suggests volunteer. My Ds does scouts I am very grateful for the time they volunteer but doesn’t mean I want to^

Tbh, at 6.30 on a Wednesday evening, when I have been home from work for less than an hour, I quite often don’t want to either.

I despised being a brownie as a kid, my group was just terrible. It was fun by a bunch of cliquey "feminist" man hating women who spent their entire time emphasising things like "and this is how we go camping... As WOMEN!" and "now we are going to light a camp fire despite the fact the patriarchy says we as women should not light fires but we are strong feminist women so we will light this campfire anyway!"

It was utterly bizarre. They where obsessed with making everything we did correlate in some way to being a woman/feminist and I remember as a kid thinking "can't we just go camping/arts and craft/whatever without the incessant emphasis on feminism all the time?" They would try and bring feminism into every activity in the most tenuous and bizarre way possible and regularly shit talked anything and everything to do with men or scouts

My daughter is in cubs, as her brownies closed down about 6 weeks after she started. She loves it. They're doing den building in the woods this week.

I was bullied horribly by my brownie Guide.

We all found it so boring and just played games in the hall with the occasional wavering around sticks or some crap.

So I joined cubs instead. Then scouts.
We did 15k walk in groups of 5 by ourselves with compasses and maps and phone check ups ever 5 hours. At the age of 12.

Camping in Switzerland. Rifle shooting. Deep sea fishing. We had the marines do a self defence class. Scuba diving (in a swimming pool). Most weeks we build fires and cooked snacks.

Cubs and scouts is so much better. Brownies is singing about serving other people and our queen. Scouts is about being prepared and building skills that are pretty transferable if not damn fun.

My DGD started at Beavers, then Cubs, Scouts and now in Explorers (or some such name). She's loved every minute of it and has been on many camps.
The Leaders are mostly male but their wives get involved if required and go on the camps and trips as necessary. They also organise impressive fundraising events for the different sections which parents are obliged to help at.
The best packs often have a waiting list so put your DD's name down asap.

I can’t endorse the taking away of male spaces when also demanding female spaces stay just that. I'd feel like an incredible hypocrite

That is absolutely not what happened. Both Scouts and Guides were given the choice of remaining single sex or becoming mixed. Guides chose to remain girls only- Scouts, largely due to plunmeting numbers, chose to become mixed. Simple as that. Nobody was forced to do anything.

And yes, groups depend on volunteer leaders-and some are better than others. There is no centralised “curriculum” If your ds doesn’t like her group then try another one or try Cubs.

And the disparaging if traditional “female” activities on this thread is pretty unpleasant, frankly.

Brownie leader here, who's also been involved with Scouting in the past.

My unit does 3 holidays each year - a local single night, a local 2 night, and a single night further afield & more adventurous (ie more expensive). The planning, organisation & training involved is insane. We don't camp because I'm not qualified to take them camping. It also enables us to have camping as the next step up when they go to Guides. Our Guides include Wintercamp at Gilwell, a water sports camp at a local reservoir, and a traditional summer camp.

Our local Cubs was awful. I did what I could, but it was v weak. They did one single night away in 2 years, by tagging along with another group, because the Leaders just did not have the qualifications, nor the interest in getting them.

Taking other people's children away is incredibly stressful! I don't sleep the night before & barely sleep while I'm there.
Flossie misses her mum.
Jemima's wet the bed.
Elsie won't eat.
Millicent has freaked out because Tabitha said there was a spider in the bathroom.
Meanwhile, the hob won't light and 2 parents keep trying to ring me even though there are clear rules about using the emergency contacts system.
And most won't bother to say Thank You at the end.

OP - if you can't appreciate the effort that volunteers put in, then just let someone else have your daughter's place.

You can't compare Brownies and Scouts because they are different age groups. My girls enjoyed Brownies - they did lots of trips - but much preferred Guides when they reached the age of 10.

In Guides they went camping, slept under the stars, cooked out on fires they had built themselves and were treated as young adults, not school children. They all joined Guides as soon as they were 10 rather than staying on in Brownies until they had to leave.

I'm a new Brownie leader and volunteered precisely so the girls get hte opportunity to do the outdoors things as that's very much my thing. However, not every leader is going to be confident leading that type of activity. The answer is volunteer yourself or move her to Cubs. Brownies are very keen that there is a balanced programme - so they should be doing the craft, drama, skills for the future running round, and adventurous stuff! Next term our Brownies will be doing a muddy obstacle course and lighting fires...

Although I normally have the utmost respect for volunteers, out local brownie lady was a miserable old stick. Also brownies was dull as ditchwater, for girls whose idea of a good time was making a paper lantern then being allowed to run from one side of the village hall to another (quietly). Dd went twice. It's a complete anachronism . Cubs looks better.

I was a Brownie 30 years ago. The scouts had so much more fun than us! We played games and sang songs in the school hall and that was about it. The badges were ALL yellow craft badges - stuff like housework and hostessing and knitting.

When we went to our annual camp we had to sleep in the lodge while the scouts camped outside, they made fires but we weren’t allowed, and there was a massive rope swing that fitted about 20 people but we weren’t allowed to swing it, only sit on it (and after our turn we had to watch the scouts swinging on it).

The reason was “because you’re girls”. It’s sad to think how easily we just accepted that blatant sexism!

If you think you can do better, why not volunteer with them?

My DD did Brownies. She totally enjoyed it and it was run by two lovely ladies, who even now will stop and say help, ask how DD is. It might not suit every child or what parents are looking for, but is there for those that want to take part and enjoy it. She did a few local trips and one away - think she'd have like more trips away, but the main leaders were older ladies and obviously not easy managing a group and all their things by train. I totally appreciated their time and effort though.

Given that OP seems to resent even accompanying a bowling trip, I don't think she's going to be up for volunteering to make the pack better.

Incidentally- I have been involved with the Scouting movement for many years in various capacities and have never heard of anyone being “thrown out”. Very occasionally, a child has been asked to miss a week or an activity after persistently refusing to follow safety instructions, and we once asked a child’s parent to come to camp because we felt we couldb’t manage their particular additional needs effectively. But thrown out? Nope. Absolute myth.

If you think you can do better, why not volunteer with them?

Because presumably instructions on what you can and can't do are set at top level. I've never heard of brownies doing anything that my dd would have enjoyed. I volunteer for a more progressive sports organisation instead!

I don't see why OP has turned this into a Guides v. Scouts issue.
If you are so keen for DD to go camping and build fires then do it yourself!

I don’t think adults drawing on their own very gendered experiences of guiding/scouting 25 or more years ago is very helpful. Both organisations have moved on considerably as organisations, although how this plays out locally is down to to characters of the leaders involved.

“Because presumably instructions on what you can and can't do are set at top level.“
Nope. Scouts and Guides (which include Cubs and Brownies) are young people led organisations. Local groups can do whatever the kids want to do within constraints of budget, available helpers and common sense.

I've never heard of brownies doing anything that my dd would have enjoyed.

I'm a leader for Rainbows, so a younger age than Brownies. Recently we've done

• Pizza Making
• Science experiments
• Making Instruments
• Time Travel
• Making Dens
• Teddy Bear Picnic

Nothing outdoors, as we don't have the outside space unfortunately. However, I can't imagine a child who wouldn't enjoy at least one of those activities, and other units will be doing other exciting activities.

I do find the idea that anything remotely girly must automatically be crap deeply depressing.

Same here Bertrand We follow the interests of the girls, if they want to have a traditionally girly night then who are we to say no.

Scouting is “youth shaped” ie: led by the interests of the young people.

Actually Guiding is supposed to be girl-led and Scouting often runs to a program set up by the leaders in advance, often over a multi-year rotating cycle, with little input by the children.

So, you may find that the leaders are following the girls' lead in Brownies.

I used to do Brownies and we went camping. And did knots. And cooked outdoors. And did (short, because I'm not mad) hikes.

My DS is in Beavers and they come home with glitter and, er, lovely junk modelling and make chocolate crispie cakes. Among other things, of course.