Brownies, a waste of time!

[Growuppeople]

My daughter has been with brownies over a year, they have been on one overnight trip. My DD wants to do scouts but she’s so shy around boys. She wants to do camping, building campfires, adventures! Not knitting or art and crafts! I pay nearly £50 for uniforms, £10 for the “new book” and now I have to go bowling with them. I thought they would learn independence, health and safety among other important life skills. Am I wrong in thinking I’m wasting mine and my daughters time, she is learning absolutely nothing, or is she just with a rubbish group? What do all your brownies do?

[Becles]

@Bibijayne

Scouts ... Much better safeguarding.

Erm, please could you announce that to a mixed audience of guiders and scouters? Please feedback

[drspouse]

Oh, and my DD is 4 and wants to join either Beavers or Rainbows.
Because I know of the safeguarding issues in Guides (which actually can be the same in Scouts if you get a leader who doesn't understand what biological sex means), I may well send her to Rainbows, as I'm happy being blunt with her leaders and pulling her out of activities that aren't adequately risk assessed.

My DS' Beaver unit has no girls in it, there was one but she moved up to cubs, and her similar aged brother will be moving up soon so I imagine she'll stay. With the best will in the world, the leaders of Scout groups do tend to fall into the trap of "boys are just like that so we'll let them" on behaviour issues, including talking over the girls (that's the boys not the leaders).

[drspouse]

@Becles

Guiding - if a boy says they are a girl, they can join, and we cannot tell anyone.

Scouting - if you are a leader who understands the difference between sex and gender, you will be putting children in single sex tents.
However, if you are a leader who thinks that saying you are a girl magically makes you one (and they definitely exist. David Challenor was a Scout leader) you will be putting children in tents according to their feelings on the day.

So as I cross-posted, whichever Movement my DCs are in, I'll be having robust words with the leaders.

[Aeroflotgirl]

I was a Brownie 35 years ago, it was in a school hall, and we played games, sang sons, and badges were more craft and housekeeping orientated. We did have a couple of trips to the local pantomime. The scout hall was quite a bit away, so don't really know what they did. I diden't mind it personally, but now it would be considered totally boring, as times have changed, also there are more activities available that was unheard of 30 plus years ago ( indoor rock climbing, trampoline parks etc). Tbf, I like my comforts, and camping alfresco without facilities is not my cup of tea, camping in the lodge much better. Not much fun if it rains and your tent is flooded and you are all wet.

I did join the Guides after, but found it very dull, so joined the Air Training Corps instead, which was awsome, I flew a chipmunk, and did outdoor assault courses, and completed my airmanship exams.

[BertrandRussell]

Nice backtrack there, @zeroSum!

[formerbabe]

And the disparaging if traditional “female” activities on this thread is pretty unpleasant, frankly

Yes I totally agree with this.

Camping, outdoorsy stuff is cool and craft, games, cooking etc isn't.

Kids like different things. If one group doesn't suit their interests then move to one that is more suitable. No need to criticise.

My dd absolutely loves brownies.

[TrickyKid]

Yanbu my dds brownies was very stereotypically girly, she got bored of it. The final straw for me was turning up to their world thinking day to discover it was heavily religious. I'd send her to church if I wanted her to hear that.

[Aeroflotgirl]

I agree nothing wrong with arts and crafts, and home type things, I quite enjoyed that and was happy with it, but some might not. It is hard to volunteer now, you have all sorts of risk assesments, and health and safety regs you have to fulfil, from dd Brownie leader, she spent 30 hours a week planning activities and doing Brownie work.

[BertrandRussell]

“It is hard to volunteer now, you have all sorts of risk assesments, and health and safety regs you have to fulfil”
Yes if you want to volunteer to be a leader. Not if you’re volunteering as a helper. And it’s helpers who are often the problem for outings and so on.

[PBo83]

My Stepdaughter did Brownies for 3 years (I think) and loved it. She loved collecting and showing off all the badges she got. She learned the basics of a lot of different activities which actually led to some of her current hobbies and even, potentially, to future careers.

In my experience there was a fairly wide variety of activities. A large number of which (shock horror!) were traditionally more 'girly' but this was what most of the girls (my stepdaughter included) WANTED to do.

In answer to the OP's question, if she doesn't enjoy it and you're paying for it then, yes, I guess it is a waste of time (and money). However, from my experience, many girls get a lot out of Brownies and I hope it continues for generations to come.

As a side-note, I think Scouts is typically older than Brownies so you may find comparing to guides (who do a lot more outdoor activities) more accurate.

[SmarmyMrMime]

It's not that there is anything "wrong" with craft and cooking, our girls love it, but it should be there as part of a mixed, balanced programme and not just crafts and cooking.

Guiding is such a valuable female only space that gives girls the confidence to try more adventurous activitities without being socially (or once puberty kicks in) physically dominated by boys which they can be in mixed spaces like school.

[drspouse]

@zeroSum
If it's about safeguarding, they should either welcome it or find another volunteer role.
If your DH told me that concern for my child being put in sleeping arrangements with a child of the opposite sex meant I was a "twat" I'm sure either the LEA safeguarding people or the volunteer coordinators would be interested in his language.

I should point out I am a long time Guider and reasonably regular parent helper at Beavers, though I do tend to mainly send DH, who will be happy to be just as robust. Same with school - if nobody else is doing safeguarding, we're happy to point this out. I am well aware the leaders are volunteers, as you may have bothered to read in my previous post.

Of course, you may be happy for your DCs to be left to lax/wishful thinking risk assessments but I'm not.

Just out of interest, if your DH was told he had to put a boy who said he was a girl in a tent with actual girls, what would have been his response? And what about his Commissioner?

[Struckbylightning]

There are loads of girls in Cubs these days, in my dd’s pack they were about 50/50. She loved it so much that when she left Scouts she returned as a Young Leader.

[drspouse]

Scouts is typically older than Brownies so you may find comparing to guides (who do a lot more outdoor activities) more accurate.

Yes, Scouts (11-15? not sure on the upper end) is also older than Guides (10-14).
Cubs (8-11) do a mixture of crafts and outdoors stuff. Like most Brownies (7-10) should.

[drspouse]

There are loads of girls in Cubs these days, in my dd’s pack they were about 50/50.
This is highly dependent on the area/unit. As I said, my DS' Beavers is all boys, having lost the one girl who's now in Cubs. I think there may be a second girl in Cubs and Scouts is about 10-20% girls.

[Beamur]

drspouse
I'm also a Guide Leader and I know exactly where you are coming from.

[CreativeMumma]

My 6yr DD goes to scouts as I wanted her to gain those skill and confidence, and have to play with boys (she mailed my has female friends) she's the only girl in the group.
She's going on a beavers sleepover soon and will do camp fires and den building and be running around outside the whole weekend.
Could you sell the uniform second hand to make some of the money back?

[Paccs]

zeroSum I can't endorse the taking away of male spaces when also demanding female spaces stay just that. I'd feel like an incredible hypocrite. I know of several parents who have sent their 'shy around boys' daughters to Cubs and then done little but complain about the boys' behaviour.

This^^
My boys were cubs when they started to allow girls in and it totally changed the dynamic of the group.

[turncloak]

And the disparaging of traditional “female” activities on this thread is pretty unpleasant, frankly

This. These threads always turn out the same, and I strongly suspect that lots of this drama stems from the parents' own beliefs, instead of the children's.

[00100001]

" A brownie leader from another group not related to this reported it and they werent allowed to join in as it was against their ethos!"

Well it's true, girl guides aren't allowed to engage in "war" games , so no paintball, need wars etc

[Beamur]

I think you'll find Scouts chose to admit girls as they were struggling to get enough adult volunteers. By admitting girls it meant more parents (especially Mums) helped.
However I do think that both boys and girls benefit from single sex activities some of the time.

[00100001]

Nerf wars *

[PBo83]

@Paccs @zerosum

Thirded.

[Fatbutt]

@00100001 - Well it's true, girl guides aren't allowed to engage in "war" games , so no paintball, need wars etc

Since When?

As a guide (Many years ago) I did rifle shooting, my DD (a guide now) has done rifle shooting and archery...

I think it is down to the leader of the group what activities happen, our first leader was... not the best - we now have a very senior leader taking the group and there are lots more activities, camps, badges - not all girly either!