Brownies, a waste of time!

[Growuppeople]

My daughter has been with brownies over a year, they have been on one overnight trip. My DD wants to do scouts but she’s so shy around boys. She wants to do camping, building campfires, adventures! Not knitting or art and crafts! I pay nearly £50 for uniforms, £10 for the “new book” and now I have to go bowling with them. I thought they would learn independence, health and safety among other important life skills. Am I wrong in thinking I’m wasting mine and my daughters time, she is learning absolutely nothing, or is she just with a rubbish group? What do all your brownies do?

Consult all parents and don't do anything that would make the parents unhappy

I agree that parents should be made aware of the policy. It wouldn’t be hard to make parents aware of the policy without being too specific as to which child you were referring too, as you have previously said. However, as most leaders will know, you can’t plesse all the parents all the time. I’m sure the majority of leaders will strive to put the best arrangements in place for the group of children as a whole.

And whilst Scouting may not requite their sleeping arrangements to be segregated by sex (not gender)

Scouting does not require sleeping arrangements to be segregated by sex OR gender.

In GG, parents can't

Presumably parents do know the GGs policy though? So they can decide based on that? I’m not unsympathetic to the situation, and I think we’re in the early days of transgender inclusion. But I really don’t think that either scouts or guides are breaking the law. Or that any leader would just put a transgender child in a tent with other children without giving the matter a lot of thought, and considering other practical options.

Given many of the Leaders may not know about these rules I very much doubt the majority of parents will.
As people have already said, there's no need for individuals to be identified, but all of the girls needs ought to be considered. I don't think that is happening.

the GG policy only came out when a leader blew the whistle. And the GG promptly got rid of that leader. If you're a liberal lefty who only reads the Graun there's a good chance you haven't a clue.

I think you're being pretty naive, budgie. Organizations and policy makers have clearly demonstrated that safeguarding is not top of their list when looking at transgender inclusion. Inclusion is, at whatever cost.

Presumably parents do know the GGs policy though? So they can decide based on that?
They don't. They weren't told, consulted, and it's not been made public beyond news stories (and GG won't talk to the press about it!)

My current policy is keep my girls safe by not getting them into situations where the parents don't know what their girls are doing.
If I do tell parents they are aghast.
If I told any of the Muslim parents that have had girls in our unit (none currently) they would have walked straight out of the door.

They weren't told, consulted, and it's not been made public beyond news stories (and GG won't talk to the press about it!)

It’s readily available on girlguiding.org.uk, although I accept you’d have to think to look for it. But it’s certainly not true to say that it’s not made public.

Adding a massive change to your organization (ie moving it from single sex to mixed sex, which they still haven't made clear) by adding it to your website with no fanfare is only making in public in the most technical sense of the phrase. It was not advertised at all and it took a whistleblower to actually announce it to even their own leaders.

They did it by stealth because they didn't want anyone to know and they certainly didn't want to debate it.

It’s readily available on girlguiding.org.uk,

No, it’s really not. You have to dig through a whole load of crap, then parse the wording to realise exactly what their position is. Some of my parents frankly wouldn’t have the reading skills. Others have no idea they even need to look.

I loved Brownies. It was a opportunity to make some friends and learn new things. Could you try volunteering for a while and see what happens? Perhaps you should suggest new activities. I’m sure they will appreciate that. I used to volunteer at my local group.

I hated brownies for this reason too. About 35 years ago.
It's a bit depressing how little it sounds to have changed.

yorkshire have you actually read the whole thread? Because if you had you'd see that the OP's experience is not universal, by a long chalk.

I went to Brownies and all we ever did was played Tig in the park outside and occasionally went for a walk in the woods. And we put on a play once. We barely ever did anything that actually contributed to badges, and the religious aspect began to grate on me considering I've always been atheist. All that plus the fact the girls really didn't like me meant I left after a year lol.

And the disparaging if traditional “female” activities on this thread is pretty unpleasant, frankly

Completely agree.

OP YABVU. Firstly for saying Brownies is a 'waste of time' just because it doesn't suit your daughter. And secondly for implying that arts and crafts are less worthy than other activities.

There are plenty of girls and women who enjoy crafts, baking and so on. Nothing wrong with that. Not all girls want to do outdoor stuff.

My 3 dds loved Brownies. They played games, made things, sometimes they had visitors, remember a lady coming in with her guide dog. They went horse riding and swimming. They had fun and made new friends. It shouldn't be a learning experience first and foremost, it should be relaxed and fun, if they pick up any useful life skills on the way that's a bonus.

OP if she isn't enjoying it, take her out and enrol her in one of the other activities suggested on here. But please don't diss Brownies, a lot of girls really enjoy it.

Blimey. So far, so predictable, eh?
I’ve been both a scouter and a guider. I’m currently a guider as I feel that continuing to offer female only space to girls and young women is essential. (Except for the obvious. Fully support Agnes and may just have burned my own bridges with a supposedly anonymous survey which asked my postcode and section).
Anyhoo. Am also a district treasurer, unit treasurer for five units, adult trainer, and am probably going to end up as commissioner again in September as we still don’t have a volunteer. Yes, I run a unit. Yes I have a full time job. Yes I have children (three).
I’ve learned over the years that my actual volunteers (including the ones that ‘only’ do crafts, or cookery, or play games, are worth twenty times that if the number of well-meaning parents that offer ‘advice’ (polite way of saying ‘whine and complain because the girls aren’t doing x, or y’. We would love to have you on board to offer these fantastic opportunities. Please. Join us. If the choice is between Jenny who has been Brown Owl for twenty years, and who offers a ‘boring’ but over-subscribed program, or closing down the unit because no one will step up and run the ‘fun’ stuff, I’m going with Jenny. And I’m going to buy her flowers at the end of the year and say thank you.
That said, as an adult trainer I spend a lot of my weekends and free time empowering guiders to take on camps and adventurous activities (when I’m not sending twelve year olds off on overnight adventure hikes, digging their tents out of snow drifts, and canoeing in the middle of nowhere, obv.)
These aren’t brownies. And frankly, I am laughing my head off at the ‘have you thought about cadets?’ posts.
Brownies, people. They aren’t 14.
I was a brownie, a guide, a Ranger, and an air cadet. They aren’t mutually exclusive. I can assure that they still commissioned me into the military despite my terrible past with glue guns. And I can assure you that having spent time in an all-female environment gave me the confidence to find out who I was without fear of being found wanting, and to lead servicemen. Cadets didn’t do that.
Oh. And where I’m living now, we camp with bears. With our brownies. and this summer I’m taking fifteen girls to five different countries. They have to wait until they are 12 for that though.
Oh yah.
Stupid girl guides. They never do ANYTHING.

Why are some people bashing an entire organisation based on their own brief experience of apparently having to knit or sew or whatever (the horror!!).

As with anything, it varies between groups. I did lots of outdoor things with Brownies. I also learned to sew on buttons (I survived the trauma and have even found it useful).

These organisations are run by unpaid volunteers. They give up their free time to provide a safe and (ideally) fun time for your kids to enjoy.

If your child doesn’t enjoy it, then find something else which they do. Easy. No need for the vitriol.

@Mamaryllis

I’ve been both a scouter and a guider. I’m currently a guider as I feel that continuing to offer female only space to girls and young women is essential.

You do see the irony / pure sexism in this, right?

You do see the irony / pure sexism in this, right?

The sad truth is that in many areas there would be no scouts if women weren’t running the units.

Really @ScalrycLuxx? Are you talking about Brownies / Guides or Cubs / Scouts?

My anecdata - DH was a leader and both sons went through from Cubs to Explorer Scouts - is that Scouts especially are male led and run. Cubs had a few women leading but mostly male. Brownies and Guides obviously 'protect female spaces'

1. Scouts and Guides both had the opportunity to stay single sex or become mixed. Scouts opted for mixed pragmatically because they were suffering from falling numbers of both kids and leaders.

1. Guides remained single sex. These are many girls who for religious or cultural wouldn’t be allowed to join a mixed organisation.

@BertrandRussel

Really? Why haven't you told us before?

I don't think anyone in the 294 replies has argued against the reasons. A good few have called it a crying shame. One poster - since deleted but no idea why - pointed out that there are campaigns in the US to make Boy Scouts inclusive. Not due to falling numbers but because it "isn't fair on the girls."

“BertrandRussel

Really? Why haven't you told us before?“
I realise that it’s been said before. But while posters are still calling it “pure sexism” it has to be repeated.

Are you talking about Brownies / Guides or Cubs / Scouts?

I’m talking about cubs/scouts. You know, the ones my brother went to where the leaders were mainly female because the big important breadwinner men were too busy being out at work.

Isn't the definition of stupidity to keep repeating yourself and expect a different outcome?

Maybe the irony was a stronger point. Leaving inclusive Scouting to work for Guides because she valued a female only space.

Such a shame for our young men. Told their very being is 'toxic' (and worse if they're binary, straight and white) and expected to keep away from female spaces but never for a second feel like a male space is acceptable.

Slightly off topic but DH is a Headmaster and had to tell two male 6th formers this week that they couldn't run a race to another local school to raise money for white boys in basketball. In the same week a woman visited to tell the school about her promoting black girls in science.

Shameful double standards.

there are campaigns in the US to make Boy Scouts inclusive. Not due to falling numbers but because it "isn't fair on the girls
Except that may not be the case. I’ve read several articles recently that have indicated that the Boy Scouts of America (and also the Girl Scouts) have been experiencing a significant drop in membership of both scouts and leaders since 2014, and for this reason they have chosen to admit girls. Nothing to do with it ‘not being fair in the girls’

Really @ScalrycLuxx*? Are you talking about Brownies / Guides or Cubs / Scouts?

My anecdata - DH was a leader and both sons went through from Cubs to Explorer Scouts - is that Scouts especially are male led and run. Cubs had a few women leading but mostly male•

My anecdota is quite the opposite. Across all the sections of our scout group, there are far more female than male leaders. The scout exec is 50/50.

@budgiegirl

Well, it'll be interesting to see which of our experiences are more typical across the organisation when @SalrycLuxx replies with figures.

expected to keep away from female spaces but never for a second feel like a male space is acceptable

Whoever said that a male space isn’t acceptable? Of course it is. But for the reasons previously outlined, the Scouts decided they are not the ones to offer this.
Anyone else is free to do so if they wish.