Brownies, a waste of time!

[Growuppeople]

My daughter has been with brownies over a year, they have been on one overnight trip. My DD wants to do scouts but she’s so shy around boys. She wants to do camping, building campfires, adventures! Not knitting or art and crafts! I pay nearly £50 for uniforms, £10 for the “new book” and now I have to go bowling with them. I thought they would learn independence, health and safety among other important life skills. Am I wrong in thinking I’m wasting mine and my daughters time, she is learning absolutely nothing, or is she just with a rubbish group? What do all your brownies do?

It’s not double standards. It wA pure pragmatism.

*was

The fact that there are now lots of entitled women (like DrSPouse) who'd "robustly" demand that her daughter attend Cubs or Scouts and be kept separate from boys shows just how skewed society is becoming

Although IRL I’ve never come across this attitude. Although boys greatly outnumber cubs in my pack, those girls that do attend are more than happy to muck in with the boys, I have never been asked, or even heard a comment, about keeping the girls separate from the boys.

Also, when my DD was in scouts, aged about 13, she was going through a time of confusion over her gender, as I’m sure many teenagers do, and scouts were nothing but supportive. They were fantastic, no fuss was made, and I shall be enternnally grateful for the way they handled the situation with compassion and a great understanding of the problems s teenager can face.

@agentsOffice so you think boys and girls should sleep together in tents and parents shouldn't be told?
Riiight.

@budgiegirl my comment was ONLY about sleeping arrangements in today's world of magic sex changes and the PP knows it.

They tend to separate boys and girls in Scouts here when they're young teenagers which seems sensible to me, then when older it's mixed again but in small teams so could be single sex if they prefer to organise that way.

They tend to separate boys and girls in Scouts here when they're young teenagers which seems sensible to me

It doesn’t to me! I’m glad my dd was able to go to a mixed scout group. I accept that for some it’s good to have the option of a single sex group, But for those who want this, there are options other than scouts.

@agentsOffice Even if that volunteer organisation is breaking the law and failing to safeguard other children? You just leave them to it?

It doesn’t to me! I’m glad my dd was able to go to a mixed scout group. I accept that for some it’s good to have the option of a single sex group, But for those who want this, there are options other than scouts.

They're separated for their weekly meetings but it's still mixed for events, which seems a good mix to me

@agentsOffice

Boy scouts are going mixed sex for the same reason UK scouts did. They need the numbers, also given some large payouts arising from sexual abuse cases are looking for extra revenue.

Neither UK or USA scout organisations consulted with the girl only groups before reaching their decision. So please don't blame the wimmins for spoiling the boys' fun.

Even if that volunteer organisation is breaking the law and failing to safeguard other children?

How are they breaking the law? I’m sure their policies will have been written within the legal framework, and a huge amount of research will have gone into their policies.

The current Guide rules/policies around inclusion of trans identifying children has been extremely controversial and not everyone agrees they are totally within the law, although Guides are confident that they are.
They no longer describe their organisation as single sex, but single gender. (Despite children not having the legal provisions to assert a gender change). The result of which, hypothetically, could put a male bodied child alongside female children without the knowledge or consent of anyone bar the transchild and their parents and Guide Leaders.

This also applies to Leaders and would mean roles open to women are also open to transwoman (restrictions apply to men).

How are they breaking the law? I’m sure their policies will have been written within the legal framework, and a huge amount of research will have gone into their policies.

You'd think, wouldn't you, but Scouts have been advised by Mermaids who think that "being a girl" is due to a girly brain feel and that all boys who say they are girls should be allowed to sleep in tents with actual girls (e.g. my DD) and parents shouldn't be told.

Owing to the fact that most leaders would think this is crazy, it hasn't actually been filtered down to leaders fully, so many still go on sex.

Children who are from religious communities who cannot have their children sleeping or sharing washing/changing facilities with those of the opposite sex, cannot now take part fully (e.g. Orthodox Jewish Scouts, Muslim Scouts) if they will be asked to share a tent with a child of the opposite sex. This is discrimination and is against the law.

So the position is not QUITE as crazy as Guiding (since Scouting wasn't a single sex organisation and within the context of a normal meeting nobody is saying "this is an all boys' group except that X isn't a biological boy but we'll pretend she is").
But it's very reliant on the individual leader and their interpretation of "putting all the girls together in a tent and checking with parents that the arrangements are OK".

You'd think, wouldn't you, but Scouts have been advised by Mermaids who think that "being a girl" is due to a girly brain feel and that all boys who say they are girls should be allowed to sleep in tents with actual girls (e.g. my DD) and parents shouldn't be told

I’d love to know where you are getting this information from? If you read POR it certainly does not say *that all boys who say they are girls should be allowed to sleep in tents with actual girls”. It actually says it is one if a range of options to consider, after discussion and risk assessment.

The requirements of all children, including those with religious requirements, will be taken into account. There is no discrimination and therefore no laws are being broken.

GG have thrown safeguarding out of the window, if a boy identifies as a girl he is to all intents and purposes to be treated as a girl and sleep and share washing and changing facilities with girls and parents are not to be told. GG have been very clear on this. And girls who identify as boys are shown the door.

I have not yer bailed on GG yet, as DD enjoys B|Brownies and her Brown Owl is excellent. But she's not going on any residentials where I don't know who else is going. Luckily she doesn't want to but I am very angry that we will be put in this position if and when she does. We specifically chose a girl-only organisation and this is what we end up with.

The children sharing that tent and their parents have no right to be asked though, as the transchild s right to privacy is paramount. I find that, both as a Leader and parent of a Guide really hard to square.

yes, our Brown Owl (who knew nothing about this change until it was in the papers) did have that expression on her face when she agreed that she wouldn't be allowed to tell parents if there was a trans identifying boy sharing these facilities with Brownies - she knows it's bullshit and a safeguarding issue.

Boy's privacy trumps girls' safety, privacy and dignity.

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4228/gender-identity-supporting-young-people?cat=377,378&moduleID=10

"The young person has a right to be treated as their true gender irrespective of what stage they are at."

"How can I manage the sleeping arrangements? There is no rule in Scouting stating that young people must be split by gender for sleeping arrangements."

"Some options to consider, risk assess and discuss with the young person/family, are as follows:
Sharing with other young people of their true gender (or their biological sex if they would prefer), either in large or small tents with their trusted friends."

So you don't have to tell the other families. You only have to consult with the child who thinks they have a "true gender".

I've heard more about this issue in the news and on MN than through Guides. The information is there on the website and there was training run recently on LGBT inclusion (I wasn't able to go) which may have covered this.

Beamur I've heard about a really one-sided training that took place at Region level in one Region. It's been policy for a couple of years but it is pretty obvious GG doesn't want leaders to actually know about it.

So you don't have to tell the other families. You only have to consult with the child who thinks they have a "true gender"

But nevertheless, the needs of all children must be taken into account, so again, exactly how are the scouts breaking the law? I think it would be a very rare situation that a transgender child would be sharing a tent with other children without at least some consideration of the situation as a whole.

As it states, Scouting does not require sleeping arrangements to be split by gender. So while it does make sense to most leaders to do this where practical, it does mean that mixed sleeping may happen on occasion. Including those who are transgender. I would expect each situation to be assessed individually. You’ll note that it suggests that transgender children may want to sleep in tents with their trusted friends, not just any group of scouts. POR also goes on the suggest some alternatives, so there are always options.

I accept that some parents may be unhappy with this, and I appreciate that a parents first instinct is to protect their child. But I’m genuinely not sure what can be done about this, the Scout Association works hard to try to be inclusive to ALL children , regardless of gender, race, disability etc. I sent my DD to scouts knowing and accepting their policy. In fact, I can’t praise the scouts highly enough for their inclusive policy when my DD was unsure of her gender.

I’m genuinely not sure what can be done about this

Consult all parents and don't do anything that would make the parents unhappy or raise safeguarding issues.

Very very easy. But they don't say that leaders must do this, therefore some leaders won't.

There is absolutely no need to identify a child. I do risk assessments when I have a child with behaviour problems that just say "extra adults needed when walking to and from hall due to child A's SEN and tendency to run off". I don't name the child.

Children who are "unsure of their gender" (hint: gender is made up rubbish that society imposes on us so it's not too surprising people aren't happy with what they are told to do) are not especially privileged and to be given extra consideration. All children should have consideration. Children with a disability, children from religious backgrounds, all children should have their needs taken into account - not ignored with a "what can we do".

I actually think that the cult of 'inclusion above all else' is a lot to blame for a lot of this fuck up. Because in order for words and laws to be meaningful, they have to be exclusive. But exclusive and exclusion are dirty words these days, particularly where children are concerned.

And whilst Scouting may not requite their sleeping arrangements to be segregated by sex (not gender), I'm pretty sure that the Equality Act says otherwise for those aged over 8. And either way, I would assume that parents are told if the sleeping arrangements are mixed, in which case they can make a decision. In GG, parents can't.