To try cry it out method

[loveskaka]

I have tried everything to get my wee one to sleep through, nothing is working! I am considering trying cio but would like to hear some stories on your experiences. I did say I wouldn't do it but I am up at 6am for work really struggling now. Pls help!

I’m a Clinical Psychologist - I specialise in child attachment and trauma. There is plenty of emergent research in the fields of developmental neuropsychology and attachment that converge to suggest this would not be an appropriate thing to do with a young child. I apologise - I do not have the time or inclination to offer you a free doctorate training. The OP asked for an opinion. I gave mine. I’m sure you have given yours.

Without any proper evidence to share you're just another poster on the internet frankly.

I've never seen anything conclusive to suggest that CC in the context of a loving relationship does any harm to a child. If anyone can show me actual evidence I would read it with interest.

TrainsandDiggers you didn't offer an opinion, you made a statement. You have now qualified that statement by saying that it was made on the basis of you being a clinical psychologist specialising in child attachment and trauma.

No one needs you to offer free doctorate training - I don't think anyone asked for that, but perhaps you could share details of the emergent research, as it would seem particularly helpful to this debate.

I've been on MN on and off for 18 years now and this question comes up over & over again and if there is definitive research or even emergent research, then it would be helpful for everyone to be aware of it - surely!

@AuntiePatricia u laughed out loud at 'no point in arguing with a 5 month old'
How true!

I. Not you!

The difficulty is that there is no single RCT study in this area I can point you in the direction of, because a study of that nature (because of all the concerns around this practice), would never reach ethical thresholds. A bit like how a study into the effects of drinking in alcohol in pregnancy could never be studied in this way. Sadly, that means that many people who chose to opt for this method, use this as a reason to defend their position.

Despite this, there is a plethora of research coming through in many different clinical fields - developmental trauma, clinical psychology, child development, clinical neurodevelopment, attachment, psychopathology, etc, etc, which, when you piece these findings together, suggest that a primary caregiver ignoring an infants primitive cues of distress until the child falls silent and sleeps (which in itself can be a trauma response in an infant) can (not definitively, but CAN) significantly affect the quality of the subsequent attachment relationship. This in turn is associated with a multitude of negative sequelae for the child as they develop - including emotional, behavioural and, would you believe it, subsequent sleep difficulties in later childhood. I hope you can understand therefore, that I am unable to provide you with the hundreds of studies that go in to forming this opinion.

I would also like to clarify that I was offering an opinion that was asked for by the OP. I am not concerned with convincing people of my opinion who do not wish to be convinced. Just like drinking in pregnancy - it’s your risk to take.

(And I will gracefully bow out of the discussion at this point!)

My name reflects that my 20m old daughter is still up three times a night and has been we slept through the night. In fact, we went through a two month phase of 30-45 mins wake-ups with only 1x one hour stretch. It's bloody tough.

However, for those of you who want more research, maybe check this out.

In particular page 3 - by the third day of CC there were no outward signs if distress but cortisol levels were still elevated.

They also point out that no concrete evidence of harm doesn't mean no harm. The studies people cite have many flaws in how they were carried out.

www.aaimhi.org/key-issues/position-statements-and-guidelines/AAIMHI-Position-paper-1-Controlled-crying.pdf

I still sometimes feel tempted. I look like shit most of the time. Our sex life has never really regained its mojo. But we both feel we have come this far and it's something we believe in.

However, I don't judge those that have. It's so, so hard and people often feel like there's no choice. God knows what I'd do if my husband was for it - we'd probably have split up by now - and what would the effects be then?! And I'd be without many lovely friends if I did judge.

However, if you read into it you can't unread it.

My post was sent before seeing TrainsandDaggers. She put it better than me!

Thanks everyone, I haven't tried it yet and dnt think I am right now, going to keep trying with gentler methods and try manage 1 nap a day and see if that helps, its just difficult as I get up in the morning and need to take my ds to my mums for her to babysit. So I can't monitor what's he's going on exactly but obviously my mum lets me know but not the same as being with him.

I would think the fact that we all know the negative effects of a bad nights sleep should trump the inconclusive research into controlled crying .
Good sleep is vital for good mental and physical health

LOL how is car seat even comparable?! You HAVE to go in the car sometimes! Whether the baby likes it or not; there is no choice for goodness sake. You don’t have to leave them to cry though in their cot.

FiveYearsOlder thank you for taking the time to post that link, which I've read.

I can see that the study in 2011 does say that cortisol levels remained elevated after CC, but what I am struggling to recognise is that 3 nights of controlled crying damages attachment to a parent. Surely, if that baby/toddler is in an otherwise loving home where their needs are endlessly met and if they are distressed they are comforted, hungry they are fed, tired they are allowed to sleep and so on - I just don't see how 3 nights can damage that?

I also don't understand how by going in every few minutes is failing to meet the needs of your baby/toddler. If you are reassuring them and quietly telling them it is time to sleep, then how is that not meeting their needs? At 2am, their needs are to sleep, but they've got into a bad pattern, that parents have usually facilitated of being awake then.

I also wonder if any account was taken of the quality of day time care that a seriously sleep deprived parent can give was taken into account. I felt a lot more attentive and engaged and enthusiastic about parenting when I wasn't exhausted and mildly depressed. My DS benefited from my better mental and physical health because I was up for doing so much more with him. Surely that is a factor as well?

Agree with everything you’ve said Margo

My point is that crying is crying. Why is crying for 5 minutes in their cot different to crying when they don’t want to go in their buggy/car seat. Crying when you are driving down a motorway and can’t stop for 30 minutes? How is crying in a cot for 5 minutes and then being reassured worse than this? Why are cortisol levels higher in once crying situation versus another?

As much as you may want to bow out @TraindandDiggers it would be great to hear responses to the above.

I've already questioned whether the long-term effects of some studies showing no supposed long-term effects are not due to no damage being done by CIO/CC but by the fact that tired/stressed/arguing parents counteracts it?

Equally, my daughter hasn't we been one to just 'grizzle'. We went through an awful early stage where she screamed blue murder for anyone but me, even in the day, so it was never an option

She's now at 20m and so affectionate, sociable and funny - even our childminder comments on it.

She may have been that way anyway, but I truly believe she'd have been scarred by any crying methods. People ha e said how much she's progressed. Who knows what would happen if I left her to cry.

But I have some friends with 'easier' babies who simply 'grizzle'. And they are great parents in so many ways. My approach may have changed a little if my daughter simply did her 'pram cry' she does for a few seconds (whilst being sung/chatted to/stroked) then went to sleep.

Research that takes into account these variables would help but ethically it's not possible. For now, my gut with my own daughter means I can't do it.

LOL how is car seat even comparable?! You HAVE to go in the car sometimes! Whether the baby likes it or not; there is no choice for goodness sake. You don’t have to leave them to cry though in their cot.

That's not the point though. People make claims like the cortisol causes brain damage. If it does, then it will be doing so regardless of whether it takes place in a car seat or a cot. The baby does not know whether it is something the parents have to do or not.

Exactly Kokeshi123.

No response as to why crying in the cot for 5 minutes releases more cortisol than crying in a car seat, down the motorway when you can’t stop for 30 minutes.

Or when you have 2 under 2 and the toddler needs your attention and then the baby starts crying but you can’t rush to the baby immediately. Cortisol levels different there?

Babies cry, lots. If they get love and attention and are not abandoned for hours then I don’t think a controlled crying method harms them and I’ve yet to see research that it does. If it does then crying in car seats and prams must also be harmful.

Actually, if a few hours of cortisol flooding (and most sleep training does not even last that long) damages your brain, then all of us delivered vaginally are screwed already anyway. The fetus's brain is flooded with cortisol during vaginal delivery because having your head jammed through a narrow bony opening so hard that your head is pushed out of shape is actually very stressful.

It's almost as though babies have evolved to be kind of resilient and not suffer permanent damage as the result of having a bad day or two during infancy.

I find it interesting how all these people who are deadly against any sort of CC ‘as it is so damaging’ conveniently ignore the fact that they are often missing, by a long shot, the recommended hours of sleep for a baby over years and years. But that kind of damage is ok as long as baby isn’t crying I guess.

To me it's not even about cortisol and levels of harm; I just think in no other situation would I, if I had the option not to, leave someone I loved screaming and crying for me. I would go to my crying mum, partner, best friend, in the night and give them a cuddle and stay with them until they fell asleep if that's what they needed. So I don't understand why it becomes OK just because the person crying is a tiny helpless baby who doesn't yet have a way to verbalise why they are upset. Just as I don't understand why if my other half were to give me 'a little smack' when I didn't do as he told me, that would be a prosecutable offense, but if I do it to my tiny child that's just 'discipline'. Never mind the legality of it; why would we treat our children more harshly than we would other adults, when they are so much smaller and more dependent?

And yes I know we do things for and to children we wouldn't for other adults - change their nappies against their will, pick them up bodily and restrain them from doing something dangerous etc. But we do all these things to protect them from illness and disease; my little girl slept like hell as a child, still wakes up 1-2 times a night now as a 2 year old; but in the day she is bright as a button, talking in full sentences since 18 months, walking at 10 months. She is not being harmed by the lack of sleep, so there is no way I can kid myself leaving her to suffer alone would be for anybody's good but mine. When I had to leave her at nursery screaming and wailing for me, I had no choice. I had to go back to work and earn for our family. Every night when she cries out for me, I have a choice. And I choose to save her from being scared and sad.

Incidentally, when I initially left her at nursery for settling sessions, she would cry until I was out of sight and then instantly go to sleep (even if she had napped for an hour+ before we went there). At one point, the nursery staff became aware she was actually pretending to be asleep (she was peeping at them but when they looked at her or spoke to her she would shut her eyes and go floppy and unresponsive - this was at 11 months old).

I 100% believe this was a stress/fear response, which has only reinforced my belief that a baby learning to go back to sleep on waking through CIO/CC does not mean that the baby is not stressed - indeed that quite the opposite could be true in some cases.

Can you imagine your mum, partner, best friend crying and shouting for you from their bed, over and over, every single night. Then just waking you up to do it again 4-5 times through the night with no other reason than ‘I want you’. I think you’d be pretty quick to tell them to cop the fuck on.

You really think that’s a valid comparison🤣

And you’ve clearly never seen a baby who has successfully been sleep trained if you think they are stressed going to sleep once they learn the ropes. They are the opposite of stressed.

@Auntiepatricia

I find it interesting how all these people who are deadly against any sort of CC ‘as it is so damaging’ conveniently ignore the fact that they are often missing, by a long shot, the recommended hours of sleep for a baby over years and years. But that kind of damage is ok as long as baby isn’t crying I guess.

Surely you can only assess this on the basis of the individual child? If a child is happy in the day, hitting or exceeding all their milestones, strong and healthy, but still sleeping like shit - maybe it's down to that individual child's particular sleep requirement?

There is actually a range of need for sleep - most adults need around 7-9 hours but some need less. My 2 year old apparently needs 11-14 hrs of sleep. She gets 1.5-2 hours of nap a day, rarely gets to sleep before 8pm, and never wakes up later than 5.30am - usually with a night waking or two thrown in (never awake longer than 30 mins, most often around 2-5 mins). All in all she's probably not getting 'enough' sleep - but she is way ahead of her age verbally, strong and healthy, tall and sturdy, lovely temper (if a bit wilful). I mean maybe she's storing up a plethora of issues for the future I don't know about yet, but from all available evidence she's getting what she needs to thrive. It's me that's knackered

@auntipatricia

Can you imagine your mum, partner, best friend crying and shouting for you from their bed, over and over, every single night. Then just waking you up to do it again 4-5 times through the night with no other reason than ‘I want you’. I think you’d be pretty quick to tell them to cop the fuck on.

The difference is they are adults who can reason out that what they might want is not the same as what they actually need, can be expected to think of my needs as well etc. This is all well beyond the cognitive ability of a 6-12 month old. What they want, they feel like they need. And it won't hurt her any less to deny her just because I know she'll survive. She doesn't know.

Sleep deprivation in children I believe (and the family) is far more damaging than 3 nights of controlled crying.

My children sleep brilliantly, all night from 8-7.45am even now at 8 and 10. They are happy, chilled and secure. Can’t imagine what years of crying through the night and sleep deprivation would have done for us all.

@Auntipatricia

And you’ve clearly never seen a baby who has successfully been sleep trained if you think they are stressed going to sleep once they learn the ropes. They are the opposite of stressed.

As I say, I've met many babies whose parents have sleep trained them, who seem perfectly contented babies (I'm not seeing them when they're being sleep trained, obviously!) and their parents said it was a miracle cure and bored on at me that I had to do it etc. Then went on holiday/baby got ill/teething/whatever, and the whole thing fell apart and they had to do it all over again. And then again a few months later. So this 'just a few nights' thing is total balls frankly.