To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

True five. Plus given fewer issues in the developing world, which catches up as it becomes more western, it’s the old hygiene theories plus any number of other interventions, as you list. Given that the microbiome seems to set itself in the first two years, there is a lot of scope for buggering it up! Vaccines have been around for years but the quantity increases and the adjuvants vary. That’s why I scratch my head at absolute statements about them. I also consider whether the immune system suffering measles or whatever primed it. Lots of interesting theories about the immune system needing infections at an early stage (fewer leukaemia cases eg in kids at nurseries/large families).

That’s why I think we need to be judicious about vaccines. If infections at an early age subtly affect our immune response, what do multiple adjuvants and live/non live vaccines do, cumulatively?

This mustn’t be such a binary issue. For example, I do not get my kids vaccinated against flu or rotavirus or HPV, for a variety of reasons centred on the above

I’m actually laughing at the PP who thinks non vaccinating should be criminal or whatever. So utterly naive and with almost
admirable faith in an ever changing area

That’s not what I said. Read it again, maybe several times, and think very hard. The meaning will come if you try hard enough.

Re the comments about asthma, eczema and allergies also being on the rise. I think there is an argument that 100 years ago children with severe asthma, eczema and allergies would have died. Better medication means people are surviving and are going on to have children, grandchildren who also suffer but survive with reliance on modern medicine.

I read a theory that many people who were diagnosed as choking on peanuts might actually have died from anaphylaxis.

@KissingInTheRain A friend I attend university with is friends with a woman who was severely vaccine injured. The woman can no longer walk. The findings were that it was a bad batch and the outcome was injury to all who had received it, not all injury as extreme as paralysis but still injured. Mistakes happen, medicinal products shouldn't be taken lightly and it really is like playing roulette. I'm now faced with the decision to allow my daughter to have the vaccine and I am terrified. She's 12, and regardless of rarity, some vaccines have the potential to seriously injure or kill some people.

I was given the vaccine when I was 19 after already having a positive result for HPV during a pap smear. My first ever. I continued having abnormal results for some years later, with the all clear a couple of years back after I stopped smoking cigarettes and had a stable long term partner. I had no knowledge of vaccine injury at the time I was vaccinated with gardasil, and that information wasn't provided to me when I was (an assumed test dummy). Thankfully, I have no injury from it but the what if does terrify me. If I consent to the vaccine for my daughter and she is injured as a result, how could I ever live with that decision?

And you want to make it illegal for people to be informed/aware/have a choice. People like you are extremely worrying. You cannot expect that upon acquiring this knowledge that I should have no fears or qualms about vaccines, especially when someone's seemingly mild fuck up can potentially end a life. Instead you hope for a world where information like this can't be shared among others so people are none the wiser.

I'm now faced with the decision to allow my daughter to have the vaccine and I am terrified. She's 12, and regardless of rarity, some vaccines have the potential to seriously injure or kill some people.

But diseases like measles have a much, much larger potential to seriously injure or kill some people. I don’t understand why you’re so concerned about vaccine risk, but much less concerned about the much larger risk of measles?

It’s like saying you wouldn’t wear a seatbelt while in a car because it might malfunction and cause you an injury, while ignoring the much larger risk of driving without a seatbelt.

With Gardasil, we are talking about cervical cancer and not measles. The vaccine has not yet been shown to reduce rates of cancer. It reduces infection from certain strains of HPV. There are other strains of HPV. What is interesting and possibly alarming is that when the vaccine is given, the other strains might “move in” instead this still potentially causing the risk of cervical cancer (much more research is needed).

What angers me about Gardasil as that the young women alleging vaccine damage are told its coincidental and thus it is not recorded. The data still looks good for the vaccine and so does its safety.

This infuriated me as we then have lots of people reassured. Yes, maybe the numbers are small, but that doesn’t matter if it is your child.

This is why people mocking the questioners, like me, sound so arrogant.

I wouldn’t give my child any HPV vaccine as things currently stand.

onehand

Without wishing to minimise what’s happened to your friend, she must have received compensation, either under the vaccine damage scheme or in ordinary damages, surely?

The much, much greater number of children killed or damaged by disease get nothing.

Please read what I said more carefully. I said that advertising advice on vaccines should be outlawed. That’s the case with cancer and has been since before WWII. It has been very effective in keeping down the charlatans. The measure has promoted people getting advice on cancer from doctors, not cranks and quacks, which is as it should be.

I didn’t say that mere discussion should be outlawed. Even so, I do think MN should ban any outright anti-vax posts because they are irresponsible.

And I said that it should be easier to sue parents who choose not to vaccinate, if those children spread disease. If you shun vaccines you are being negligent as to others’ health and welfare (and your own child’s). If you wilfully ignore the steps you could take to prevent transmission of infectious disease, and if transmission to another person happens and it can be shown to be probably because of your child, you should live up to your choice and your responsibility. What could possibly be wrong with that?

So, the Swedish study of 1 million girls and the Danish of 1.6 million all lies, Called?

I'm not arrogant. I tend to read peer reviewed scientific papers rather than woo sites.

@User383673 I'm not even sure why you've mentioned measles as gardasil is not a vaccine for measles. All of my children have been vaccinated against measles.

Seat belts have been proven to save lives and I know the benefits of wearing one far outweighs the risks of not wearing one. Also, a false equivalence, but you already knew that.

Oops! Cross post. Gotta get in the habit of remembering that.

I think that's because you can't control disease, you can't control bacteria and you sure can't 'arrest or silence' them so I'm not sure why anyone would feel 'owed' if they contracted an illness borne of natural causes. All of my children have had the varicella vaccine and all 3 got the chickenpox... I didn't 'blame' anyone, I just accepted it for what it was and waited for them to recover. That isn't to say I wouldn't be devastated if it was something worse and I truly hope it never is but expecting to have someone to blame and receive compensation from would be like expecting a cyclone to fix what it broke.

We CAN however, control what substances are injected into our bodies (for now, sort of) because we have body autonomy (for now, sort of).

In my country we don't have the ability to sue for vaccine injury. There is no public national record either. Really inspires trust...

I'm not even sure why you've mentioned measles as gardasil is not a vaccine for measles. All of my children have been vaccinated against measles.

Fair enough, I thought your comment was a general point about vaccines, as the rest of the thread has been.

I wouldn’t give my child any HPV vaccine as things currently stand.

So, you prefer the risk of a silent killer?

Agencies and researchers monitor which strains are in circulation, and compare with prevaccines to see if the vaccines need to be changed, like for the flu.
I'm linked to one of those studies for a different vaccine and it's not even in a developed country. So, I can tell you it's done. I don't have to read about it.

I think that's because you can't control disease, you can't control bacteria and you sure can't 'arrest or silence' them so I'm not sure why anyone would feel 'owed' if they contracted an illness borne of natural causes.

That’s wrong. There is already liability in negligence for going about publicly knowingly infectious. I’m just arguing that liability should be extended.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow and @Onehandinmypocket
This is an interesting article on the various graphs x

learninggnm.com/SBS/documents/Vaccines_Peek_beneath_the_hood.pdf

And this is her on YouTube

lweji i would love a safe and effective vaccine for cervical cancer. At present, I’m watching and waiting for my daughters who are young to see when the benefits outweigh the risks. We aren’t there yet, despite the glossy brochures and reassuring studies, for the reasons above.

Thanks for links Cath- I shall have a look later.

@KissingInTheRain Knowingly going into public spaces while sick is a damn shitty thing to do but I was not aware it was a crime? How does that reconcile with businesses who don't approve sick days etc?

I'm all for encouraging sick ppl at home until recovered. Just so you know, HPV can only be contracted through sex.. it should be treated like any other STI. So I guess as long as people aren't accidentally falling into each other's genitals it should be okay to continue accessing public spaces. ;-)

Yes, you are being unreasonable.

It could be that there are more issues now because we can diagnose more things, such as autism. It could be that delaying parenthood has caused more illness. It could be all the drugs we take, or the additives in our foods.

There are a lot of explanations other than vaccinations.

Suzanne Humphries (homeopath) has own website.

Lots of minority views. For instance, (she agrees) menstruating and post-partem women were banned from religious temples in Old Testament to protect them, not because the patriarchy couldn't deal with females being females.

(she believes) Lots of vitamin C will prevent measles being bad illness (in everyone, not just those deficient in vit C).

(she believes) Osteoporosis is caused by too little vit C.

(she believes) Vaccines are a leading cause of kidney disease. I wonder where the graph is for that one. Age-adjusted and all.

@KissingInTheRain Knowingly going into public spaces while sick is a damn shitty thing to do but I was not aware it was a crime? How does that reconcile with businesses who don't approve sick days etc?

I’m not talking about criminal offences. I’m talking about civil liability.

Without wishing to minimise what’s happened to your friend, she must have received compensation, either under the vaccine damage scheme or in ordinary damages, surely

Possibly but only after years of fighting and denial from the authorities.

The only thing anti vaxers are on to is stupidity.

Thanks to them, children who medically can't have vaccinations are put at risk of serious illness.

Ah Susanne Humphries...another prolific anti vaxxer who has also be widely discredited. Another total crank 🙄

I cannot believe that some people choose to go with Susanne Humphries who thinks that the smallpox vaccine didn't eradicate smallpox and that Polio wasn't responsible for paralysis. Who feels that the Polio vaccine has committed atrocities on primates and humans. Seriously? Maybe you need to talk to some Polio sufferers.
Oh, and on top of all that she believes water has a fucking memory. Best stop drinking it then, because it'll remember all the shit it's had in it.