To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

These diseases had declined massively before mass vaccination was introduced ... the way you’re talking is like they would return at the level they were before effective sanitation and clean water which is quite frankly ridiculous.
No, we'd had clean water and sanitation for a considerable period and were still getting these diseases. They go in peaks and troughs as the graph in the above clearly demonstrates.

How would people feel if the NHS refused to pay for treatment of any disease that should have been vaccinated against?

Or you / your child can have treatment if you/ your personal insurance pays for it.

I realize this was a while ago in the thread, but Cathmidston was unsurprisingly wrong about measles decline being unrelated to vaccines, and wrong about measles incidents following mortality trends;

vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/measles

www.historyofvaccines.org/content/graph-us-measles-cases

science.education.nih.gov/supplements/webversions/InfectiousDiseases/activities/activity5_measles-database.html

There was a general decline of measles before vaccines due to better health and sanitation, but a much more significant drop directly after vaccines.

A lifetime of autoimmune diseases?

Are lupus, T1, EDS, arthritis etc not genetic. So if your child has the genes they are already screwed, vaccine or not.

I was intrigued by the graph CathMidston posted earlier.
I can't find a true source.
It's stamped 'healthsentinel.com' but I can't find any infectious disease or vaccination information on the modern version of that website. Which appears to be a bog standard make-money-when-punters-click-on-ads-next-to-hot-health-topics type website (Macedonian teenagers maybe). So who actually put the numbers together for the graphs stamped hs.com?

(google image search) The earliest similar graphs (hs.com on them) seems to date from about 2008/2009. Here is a USA version. I found this anti-vacc rant created about 2009 with many very similar graphs. The names Richard Lockwood & Rich Scopie are linked to this ranting domain.

There's a Richard Lockwood on twitter claiming to have invented scopie's law but he posts pro-vaxx things. Mystery beckons.

Do American insurance companies charge more for non-vacc children?

six common misconceptions about immunisation from Who
This includes the theory that diseases were disappearing.

I dunno about insurance, but vaccination is compulsory in California in order to attend school (even private schools). Many other states have some kind of rules about needing vaccination to attend school.

Apparently smallpox was eradicated because, I don't know, luck.

Lweji it was healthy diet and breastfeeding, surely!

Over 800 responses is a lot to wade through.

I can only assume that the OP has been sufficiently educated now, or that they will shortly be so.

In the meantime, I'll just leave this here.

sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/penn-and-teller-on-vaccination/

By the way, if you've chosen not to vaccinate your kids, could you get them a nice big sign for their heads so they come nowhere near mine? Thanks...

Meanwhile, millions of people would love to have a malaria or a dengue vaccine, but, for some reason, Big Pharma doesn't manage to con their way into getting a useless vaccine approved. Even with Gates millions thrown in.

Do American insurance companies charge more for non-vacc children?
No, I believe they're not allowed to under the terms of the ACA which means the additional costs for treating them are spread among the premiums of those who do vaccinate their kids. To me it's a bit like only having 3rd party car insurance but expecting everyone with a fully comp policy to subsidise your repairs after an accident you caused.

In view of recent outbreaks, the one in Washington state is now 50 cases and counting, there is a growing lobby for this to be changed. Don't want to vaccinate? Then put your money where your mouth is and suck up the higher premiums and out of pocket costs if your kid gets sick.

Thanks Mrs Mars.
I'm sure it will change in time esp after the Washington outbreak.

@Cathmidston

Buggy bear ...sigh.... it follows a similar trend .... we are talking trends ... you do understand the concept right?

Oh I understand. I actually get paid to understand. It's a huge part of my professional career.

Out of interest, what's your profession? (Selling Neals Yard to your antivax FB friends isn't a profession, btw)

The issue I've seen here in the US in our area are parents claiming religious exemptions. Basically if I don't want my child to be vacation tick that box and I'm done. No one questions me. It's time that was questioned.

The collection of baseless smears and appalling falsehoods put about against vaccination on this thread alone, never mind in the crankosphere, confirms my view that legal measures are now needed.

I would like to see the criminalisation of any advertising - widely defined - by anyone offering to advise on vaccination.

Also I’d like to see negligence liability specifically extended so that the parents of unvaccinated children (without proper medical excuse) who can be shown to have spread infectious disease to others - on a balance of probabilities - be sued for the pain and suffering caused. Reports of some bankrupted anti-vaxxers would send the vac rates upwards quickly.

Attacking the selfishness of anti-vaxxers would be the most effective policy. Selfishness is certainly their main characteristic.

My theory is it's partly red car syndrome. It's only when you become a parent that you're more aware of other people's kids and with that more aware of the issues they may have. Especially these days where they're not hidden away from society like they shamefully once were.

However I do also believe there is a medical/genetic/chemical exposure reason behind some of it that big pharma of course have an interest in hiding. Just like they always have.

There are studies ongoing as to whether early/repeated ultrasound exposure during scans could also be a factor. Equally studies in to the effects of drugs/weed etc on dna and depletion/deletion theories. Also... The things and environments our grandmothers/grandfathers were exposed to. Don't forget... You were in your Mum when she was growing inside your grandmothers. It could be any combination of factors.

What I find most worrying is that there seems to be a noticible number of my friends who have children with severe autism and SEN. To the point they are even going "what the fuck is going on?!"

I mean it could even be from birth control in the tap water or even the Chernobyl fallout in the later 80s which they did warn would have consequences decades down the line globally. Or even a negative side effect of too much folic acid or something totally random. Fuck knows. But someone needs to figure it out.

five it would be fascinating if it wasn’t so worrying. I also saw the findings on early scans but of course they are still deemed safe too. You would think that urgent further research would then be undertaken... bearing in mind you can buy Dopplers over the internet that can be used at home.

I wonder how epigentics - as you allude to. So my mum’s diet was questionable and she smoked when pregnant with me. We don’t have ASD in the family so possibly no genetic link but we do have allergies and we all have hayfever or eczema etc. I’m other families it will be ASD or autoimmunity.

We will probably never know as there are so many factors at play and each one is too difficult to tease out. Except perhaps with an obvious issue like Gardasil which I think will eventually be borne out of the research considers the non reported problems.

I’m actually laughing at the PP who thinks non vaccinating should be criminal or whatever. So utterly naive and with almost
admirable faith in an ever changing area

For all any of us know @Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow it could even be some sort of leave behind from the wars with regards to epigentics. Lead exposure. Chlorine exposure in tap water. Anything. Or even an unknown virus. God that would be a movie plot wouldn't it...

I think what's bizarre though is that it's global and is increasing in line globally. There are limited factors that are global surely? Ultrasounds. Vaccines. Plastics... the short list goes on.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow also the asthma eczema etc is likely to do with your biome. All it would've taken is great grandma to have cocked up one kids (female) biome for her to then pass on an altered biome to her Daughters and her daughters to pass it on to their daughters etc. Or for one to have had a csection with minimal contact for a while after. Or a nicu stay etc. The poo transplant studies are confirming this and helping to fix it. Most allergies and even some childhood cancers have been attributed to it now.

I have asd, I was not vaccinated.

Ds has Aspergers. My gran had Aspergers. My uncle has Aspergers.

Sod all to do with vaccinations and clearly genetic.

I do t thin there is a rise in numbers either....there is a rise in diagnosis.

Fuck! Sorry, wrong universe...

copper I’m sixty with an ASC diagnosis, I too wasn’t vaccinated to any great extent as the vaccines just didn’t exist.

My mother probably couldn't be arsed but she told me the whooping cough vaccine caused brain damage or something. I was born 72.