To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

I believe in susceptibility

Pick and choose, then?

Susceptibility is a measurable thing. Some genes involved in susceptibility or resistance to certain diseases have been identified.
It's not something to believe in or not.

That's the problem with your frame of mind.

I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

I think YABU. In didn't know anyone with diagnosed ADHD, ADS etc when I went to school in the 90s, however I knew several close classmates who has all the symptoms, just unfortunately never the diagnosis or support/medications that is available today.

Incidence has not followed mortality , have you looked at the uk data.
There is also fake graphs out there which leave off the peaks. Measles again doesnt follow a straight path with epidemics every 2 to 3 years

Lweji this explains it
maronewellness.com/pasteur-vs-bechamp-an-alternative-view-of-infectious-disease/

Cath, so what?

You’ll be standing in line down the clinic with your kids all the same if measles comes knocking.

“Incidence generally accepted to follow the same trend as mortality”

As you typed that Epidemiologists and statisticians are dying a little inside.

They are not the same thing and you can’t conflate them.

cath when you find those studies that show how vaccinations ruin your immune sustem please don’t link to quack sites with topics like “purification program”.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2013

There are many reasons why deaths due to a disease decrease, and there are other ways to reduce transmission other than vaccinations.

As per the link, uptake of the measles vaccine in 1968 wasn't that great and it didn't stop transmission, but notifications were much reduced from the time MMR was introduced.
The main aim would be to reduce deaths to 0 and eventually eliminate measles like for smallpox.
Now, the converse is true. When the vaccination coverage dropped, cases and deaths started going up again. Are you going to say this wasn't observed?

Pissingintherain I’ve had measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox. Believe me I have no fear of childhood illnesses. First hand experience and all that

Would you say the same if any of those illnesses had led to serious illnesses, long-term disability or death? Or if they had had those consequences for your children?

Incidence generally accepted to follow the same trend as mortality

False. Typical antivaxxer. Know nothing.

Buggy bear ...sigh.... it follows a similar trend .... we are talking trends ... you do understand the concept right?
www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-notifications-and-deaths-in-england-and-wales-1940-to-2013

Here's some interesting reading about herd immunity:

jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/6/7/herd-immunity-a-dishonest-marketing-gimmick

There are a lot of people who believe herd immunity theory to be invalid.

Hi viiz
Totally agree

You’ll be standing in line down the clinic with your kids all the same if measles comes knocking.

Not only that, they’ll be sure to believe the doctor when they say the child needs antibiotics to treat meningitis, septicaemia or pneumonia, or a tracheostomy to save them from diphtheria, or tetanus immunoglobulin and booster after cutting their foot on a rusty piece of metal, but somehow that acceptance and belief of the doctor’s knowledge and experience won’t extend to the fact it could have been prevented. They know better, until it’s a life hanging in the balance and they realise they have to shut the hell up and listen. There won’t be any “I’ve done my research” on which inotropes to use in meningococcal sepsis, of how best to ventilate a child with measles pneumonia. They’ll soon accept medical knowledge in those instances. The hypocrisy is astounding.

There are also a lot of people who believe the earth is flat, to be fair...

I remember that when I was growing up measles, mumps and rubella were considered just childhood diseases that you had to go through. Unpleasant but not scary. I'm talking about majority of the cases, not rare complications. Vaccines can have side effects, medicine can have side effects , and flu can come with complications. It just happens sometimes.

I received vaccinations in my adulthood before travelling to certain areas and I wouldn't want to demonise them because it's not about that. I'm concerned about vaccination schedule for newborns and young children. It's not fair comparing adult immunisation with immunisation of a few month old baby.

And viiz that’s a sensible and pragmatic approach to take which you’d think few people would argue with... but hey... here we are on mumsnet where vaccination and conventional medicine is treated like some kind of religion

here we are on mumsnet where vaccination and conventional medicine is treated like some kind of religion

It's back up by good-quality evidence, Cath, not a religion.

What about the relative rarity of complications as between childhood illnesses and vaccines, and the severity in each case?

That is the approach most people take. They just believe the experts who having reviewed the evidence are of the view that the risk is in not vaccinating in most cases.

@viiz what do you know about J B Handley? Can you explain the ways in which you satisfied yourself that he is a reputable and scientifically sound source of information? Because here is what I know:

1. He isn’t a doctor and has a business degree, not a medical or science degree

1. He once deliberately misrepresented a phone poll as a genuine scientific study into the comparative health of vaccinated and unvaccinated children

1. He verbally attacks reporters who are pro-vaccine, including one occasion where he made misogynistic rape jokes about a female journalist who criticised the anti-vax industry

1. He repeatedly misrepresents scientific research to create straw man arguments to create an impression that those in favour of vaccines are lying about their role in disease prevention.

Explain to me why you think this man is a credible source of information? Explain why it’s the view of a misogynistic business man making thousands of dollars out of the anti-vax movement, a man who has lied on record about studies conducted by his organisation, that you have decided to trust?

And I agree wholeheartedly that the pragmatic approach I just outlined is one I would expect few people to argue with. But here we are...!

One thing I will say Cath is I disagree fundamentally with almost all of your beliefs and I am left scratching my head as to how you have come to believe them, but I respect you opening them to scrutiny on here in the way that you have.

viiz That post you linked to earlier was written by a prolific anti-vaxxer who believes vaccines cause autism.

If you are wanting to present a balanced argument then his ideas are not the place to start.

@User383673

Let's drop validating if author is even worthy to consider his words because this seems to be favourite way to discredit people on here.

Look at his arguments to disagree with herd immunity, look at the numbers and do the math. You don't have to agree with the words of a person you don't respect so do it yourself.

Have you noticed that now there are so many more pedophiles!!?! Never used to be as many in my day !
Do you think it's all the Non vaccinated people ?😳

viiz his theories have been discredited. He's a crank and that's well known and documented.