To think that anti-vaxers may actually being onto something?

[viiz]

I don't have children myself yet but I don't know what I would chose when the time comes. Most of pro vax/anti vax threads turns nasty with people not even willing to try and look at things with others side perspective. Not willing to even consider points of view different than their own and that's a very silly approach. People believed a lot of things that turned out to be false over the years and centuries. Why not to doubt a little?

I was born in early '80s and not in UK. Myself, my siblings and friends were all vaccinated at the time. I don't even remember what I was vaccinated against but had to be pretty basic. Just a few jabs throughout my whole childhood/teen years and nothing 3in1 or 10in1 or whatever they'll bring next.

Now to the point. Reading through hundreds of threads it jumps at me how many children have neurological, behavioural or emotional disorders. No one else sees it really?? I don't know even one person from my childhood including friends, extended family , neighbours etc who would have ADS or ADHD or any other issues like that. I see their children to have it though.

AIBU to consider there could be a link here??

Please be gentle. I hope to have a discussion here. I don't disrespect anyone's views and I only ask to try and ask yourself 'what if'.

An open minded discussion? Don’t make me laugh!

OP...Vaccines are fantastic and anyone who says otherwise is a flat earth conspiracy believing moron who shouldn’t have an opinion because they’re clearly too stupid to breathe, scientists that question vaccines are idiots, doctors that question them are quacks, research papers that question them are flawed. Infact the only people we can believe are the hood old philanthropic pharmaceutical industry ...
There we go end of discussion...

And to the people questioning my credentials to even have an opinion.. I was trained in a field that treats cancer. I left because of the corruption, dogmatic adherence to therapies that caused more harm than good and the fact that I didn’t feel people were given enough information to make an properly informed decision wrt to the risks involved.

Maybe you could at least try dropping this arrogant 'Im right, you're wrong' attitude and admitting that there might be the slightest chance that our modern science/medicine does not know everything yet. Could you honestly say they covered it all and there will be no new findings or change of direction let's say in next 10,20,50 years from now??

I make no apologies for being candid in my view that anti-vaxxers should receive blunt, even rude, replies. You are seeking to raise doubts in parents’ minds about protecting their children and protecting others’ children through herd immunity.

Together with the provision of clean water, vaccination is the greatest public health contribution of all time. We have eliminated small pox; we could eliminate polio in the near future and other diseases as well.

Personally I’d ban anti-vaxxer posts from MN. Not only would that help stop the dangerous views of anti-vaxxers being promoted but would avoid any rudeness to them.

scientists that question vaccines are idiots, doctors that question them are quacks, research papers that question them are flawed.

Pointing out the very real issues with a lot of the anti-vaccination groups and their research, particularly the ones you've cited in this thread, is not the same thing as being closed minded and rejecting them out of hand without thinking.

Can't find the Amish stuff, but did it mention the measles outbreak among the Amish in Ohio. 2016. Over 350 cases, average age 15. Brought back by two unvaccinated members of the community who had been out and about. The Amish accepted vaccines and now recommend pre travel vaccines for members involved in relief work.

Just did a quick Google of gluten rich foods which confirmed my suspicion that ds would be dead in a week on a gluten free diet. He eats, bread, pasta, pastries, pizza, soup with croutons, curly fries and some quorn products. He is 99% gluten! He is also ridiculously healthy and robust (for now).

Have you googled smallpox, diptheria, whooping cough, polio etc? Would you be willing to let your child run the risk of catching that rather than the miniscule, poorly evidenced risk of autism?

I don't think it's true that there's any link between vaccines and autism/ADHD etc, but even if there was it would probably still be a wise choice to make.

But scientists have literally investigated the link between vaccines and ASD and found absolutely no correlation. None whatsoever. Same rates of autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated children.

Both of my sons have ASD (they have twins). Looking back there were signs they were different way before they had the MMR. One had a massive skills regression basically overnight at 18 months old - if that happened around the time of a vaccination I could understand it seeming to be linked, but it happened six months later for him.

I can clearly remember the children from my schools who now would be assessed as probably being on the autism spectrum, but who back in the 60s and 70s were simply considered odd or unusual. I can recall their full names, boys and girls both.

As others have said to the OP, we're just better at recognising ASD now.

Maybe you could at least try dropping this arrogant 'Im right, you're wrong' attitude and admitting that there might be the slightest chance that our modern science/medicine does not know everything yet.

Science doesn't know everything. That's why science is our only chance of knowing because it tests and rejects findings. Science constantly asks 'how can we prove this is wrong'.

It's not about admitting we might be wrong it's about 'what does the evidence suggest, let's see if we can falsify it'. Your logic followed to its conclusions would not accept anything. 'Science says it's best I don't give my baby a bottle of wine to help it sleep but they might be wrong'. It's ridiculous when you examine it and I bet in most of your life you're very much leaning on science such as not sticking your wet fingers in plug sockets etc.

Speaking of which, has anyone noticed that diabetes rates have massively increased since we stopped sticking our wet fingers in plug sockets? Coincidence? Only if you believe everything the electrical finishings industry says.

Science doesn’t know everything. Which is why there are always new discoveries being made. Anti vaxxers - Is going back to the dark ages preferable to admitting that perhaps there are people in the world who understand something a bit more than your limited self? Maybe they studied for more than 20 minutes on google? Or got a doctorate instead of watching a video posted by a website selling alternative therapies?

The vaccine-autism connection has been completely debunked and the doctor responsible has been struck off. I have never seen any evidence linking vaccinations to other conditions like allergies and ADHD. There are lots of much more credible reasons for increased levels of allergies and ADHD. Partly increased awareness and diagnosis. Partly lifestyle and environmental changes that our bodies haven't evolved to keep up with. The link between pollution and health problems is widely recognised. There is also considerable evidence that a switch from nose to mouth breathing is linked to ADHD symptoms. There is no need to invent a vaccination conspiracy to explain these things.

Science says it's best I don't give my baby a bottle of wine to help it sleep but they might be wrong

Science told us eggs were bad for us and has now changed its mind. Scientific views do change. I can't imagine that anyone would ever say that vaccination was a bad thing but the schedule changes and the illnesses we vaccinate against change. It is not, for example, beyond the bounds of possibility that one day it might be decided to take rubella out of the MMR and only give it to girls at 12, like was done when I was at school. And DON'T start yelling at me on here and say it could never happen. Research changes practice all the time. Every time I go to give blood something has changed in the way they carry out the procedures. There's no reason to think that other areas of medicine are immune. My son had the sugar cube polio vaccine, as did I. They don't do it that way anymore.

This 'we're fed up of experts' attitude is screwing us over. Look at Brexit. 'I'm no expert in macro economics but my 15 minutes on YouTube has shown me we need to leave the EU'

I saw a clip the other day, put up by a pro-leave YouTuber where she was arguing with a bloke she'd bumped into at a demo in London. This guy is a trade expert (he's one of '3 blokes in a pub' on YouTube). Eventually he politely walked off once he realised she wasn't listening. Just after that, the pro-leaver who was recording is heard saying 'he was talking a load of shit.' It would be funny if it wasn't fucking so much up.

NotBadConsidering

You have no idea that "they don't" cause autism. You're not a mind reader or God. You under value your argument by making such bold claims. Even scientists continually get things wrong. We can only ever work from probability but must always be ready to be proved wrong!

You have no idea if they do or they don't! None of us mere mortals will EVER know.

I don't know if it does of it doesn't but I do believe that anyone who believes that all the information that filters down through big pharma and our Governments around the World to be true, is nothing short of insane.

idonotsetanalarmformyteen

Science changes it’s mind when the evidence changes. That’s a good thing & something that people with your mindset really need to develop respect for rather than seeing it as some kind of failing.

All any of us can ever do is evaluate evidence & make the best judgement we can based on it.

When you cross the road, you look both ways to gather evidence & make a decision about whether to cross or not.

Science is the method that gathers the evidence on our behalf when we’re not in a position to do so. That’s all.

All of the evidence (and there is an IMMENSE amount of it) says that vaccinations are safe in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases. Not only that, it proves itself when we see illnesses reducing greatly or being irradicated entirely once vaccinations are used.

Now you can either be the kind of person who looks at the evidence and uses it to determine the best way to keep your child (and others) safe - or you can be the kind of mindless fool who ignores all of that & thinks “Oooh, science doesn’t know everything, you know....look at eggs”. Fine if it’s the latter, but don’t expect to be respected for your idiocy.

Fuck eggs. Science put men on the moon. Science is allowing this conversation. Science eradicated smallpox and is highly likely to do the same at some stage to malaria (the biggest killer of human beings ever) & polio.

“Oh, but what about eggs?”

Jesus.

Vinylsamso

I am embarrassed for you.

“Big Pharma”?

Vinylsamso

I don't know if it does of it doesn't It doesn't THAT has been proved by science. If you want to refute that then feel free but only do so if you're suitably qualified.

Big Pharma Anti-vaxx discourse 101........embarrassing.

TIN FOIL HAT KLAXON

Well, there’s no such thing as God, no such thing as mind readers, but there is such a thing as science, and science, with its independent scientists, has proved there’s no link:

www.upworthy.com/16-years-ago-a-doctor-published-a-study-it-was-completely-made-up-and-it-made-us-all-sicker?g=3&c=ufb10&fbclid=IwAR13pITwst6tnIYOIsbjH_n_NTxMD_BVAw9weLxKHUa1RB2p9mkl37WkbG8

So, what’s a mere mortal to do? [shrug]

Out of interest, how would a mind reader know if vaccines cause autism or not? Whose mind are they going to read to get the truth? I mean I can understand how a theoretical God would know, but a mind reader couldn’t read the mind of someone with autism and know if the vaccine caused it or not could they? They could read the mind of a scientist who believes in science or a fraud like Wakefield and get different answers. So whose mind should they read?

(Actually, I would love to read Wakefield’s mind to see if he genuinely believes his own bullshit or whether he’s still acting dishonestly as he was found to be by the GMC.)

I don't know if it does of it doesn't but I do believe that anyone who believes that all the information that filters down through big pharma and our Governments around the World to be true, is nothing short of insane.
What the hell is this nonsense. Try reading some peer reviewed research.

There isn’t a proven link. Even if there was, I’d still much prefer my DD to have ADD than polio.

OP...Vaccines are fantastic and anyone who says otherwise is a flat earth conspiracy believing moron who shouldn’t have an opinion because they’re clearly too stupid to breathe, scientists that question vaccines are idiots, doctors that question them are quacks, research papers that question them are flawed. Infact the only people we can believe are the hood old philanthropic pharmaceutical industry ...

This entire statement reeks of sheer stupidity and anyone who posts anything like this has lost the argument.

a) It does not represent AT ALL the view of anti-anti-vaxxers.

b) "vaccines" are not one entity. There are lots of different vaccines. Vaccines that have been approved for mass administration have been checked and verified for usefulness and safety by independent bodies. Exceptions happen in emergencies. Most vaccines are still the object of research for improvement, because of side effects (some more than others) and efficacy. Like democracy, vaccines are not ideal, but the best we have at the moment. (again, most used vaccines)

c) the pharmaceutical industry is not philanthropic. Nobody is saying they are. But they are not responsible for introducing vaccines in the NHS. Independent bodies are. Independent researchers check them in populations. There's constant monitoring of side effects, using public health, epidemiology and statistical tools.

d) scientists that question vaccines are not considered idiots. Scientists question all sorts of vaccines all the time. They test vaccines and try to improve them all the time. Scientists get grants that way. It doesn't pay to accept things blindly. But supposed scientists that are paid by any sort of industry are, rightly, viewed with suspicion.

e) Any research, in any case, is scrutinised. And not more than by their fellow scientists. All papers are flawed in some way. Some more than others. When papers are significantly flawed, aren't people supposed to point it out? If a paper is flawed is the author's fault. Nobody else. It's unfortunate that anti-vaxxers papers tend to be more flawed than others. If you understood statistics and epidemiology, you'd see why.

f) most vaccines are fantastic. Some aren't. Crucially, and as pointed out, anti-vaxxers don't criticise the ones that aren't. For some reason they tend to put fault on the ones that are. It really doesn't say much about their intelligence, or their knowledge about vaccines, but it certainly says a lot about their motives.

But by all means present the issue as black and white, unlike what you're saying you don't want.

The main reason not to call people idiots is they stop listening to you. Losing the opportunity to make converts just so you can get your outrage junkie fix is… not smart.

I accept that I don’t have all the secret insider knowledge of the various conspiracies perpetrated on the population at large by the govt and BIg Pharma that antixvaxxers clearly do. But I do know that, despite this secret insider knowledge, I’ve never met an anti-vaxxer who can offer me a shred of credible evidence that stands up to scrutiny or, more importantly, any 97% effective alternatives to certain vaccines for combatting disease or even a 42% one in the case of the various strains of flu.

See, if anti-vaxxers did have actual proof of the conspiracy or a viable solution to measles or flu or any other communicable disease I might start listening because, surely, they’d share them.