In being sick of the way women are endlessly objectfied and treated like pieces of meat?

[Janos]

Rant alert!

I'm just so f'ing sick of it (pardon my French).

It's everywhere, on television, when you walk into the newsagents, advertising billboards, shops - AAARGHH!!

I don't remember it being like this when I was younger. Perhaps I was just more innocent then or maybe its got worse. Depressing to think what view of women this encourages, and that my DS will grow up seeing this stuff as a matter of course.

sigh

Am I just a raddled old prude or what?

"because they have many hang ups about their bodies because of the whole size 0/skinny craze "

I think that might be it BtoB. Now I wonder why that is happening Clearly nothing to do with the objectification of women of course according to some of the post on here....

i understand what certain women are objecting to here, i don't agree with it but i understand it. as privately funded organisations with their own self interest at heart advertisers are always going to push their point of view on mainstream culture.most often with the lowest common denominator.i think the only thing you can do is reject ideas and campaigns you find personally distasteful with your purchasing choices as i think censorship would just be a substitution of the idea you are forcing on people. and it is not only women who are subject to distastful campaigns, if you look at things like the current "metro-sexual" fad being ushed upon men it is a clear example of the media and women trying to change men for their own gains. this ,may seem trivial to some, i am onlymentioning it as an example of female driven media campaigns which objectify and try to manipulate men.

I agree that it isn't just women that suffer from objectification amen. I read your post further down about Daniel Craig and I can honestly say that I was not one of those leching at the poor bugger. Not my style at all.

I think it lacks respect to treat a human being as nothing but the sum of their...ummm ...parts . It has gone a step further now when so many young people are happy to be treated thus and worry about their looks to an extent never dreamed about a few decades ago. My 8 yr old DD has a classmate who cries about being fat because the boys will never like her [hhm]. 20 yrs ago it would be called puppyfat - now it's a heartbreak for a little girl who should be too young to care about crap like that.

Well, that's it, isn't it? It's not so much that the objectification happens, because it always has, it's more that nowadays it's an acceptable aspiration for people to have. Which is kind of odd, tbh.

"I think it lacks respect to treat a human being as nothing but the sum of their...ummm ...parts"

i think you've hit the nail on the head there for me but maybe not in the way you meant. when dealing with actors,models and for the most part singers (well ones who trade on their looks) i don't think it lacks respect to take their appearance into account when judging them in their profession as they have put themselves out their as someone who is attractive and believe they are attractive enough to make money off their looks.remember none of us know them peronally so it is not really a judge on their character. however the affect it has on children is heartbraking if they are getting upset over looks that young.

Just so you know how prevalent it is, the Home Secretary's cleavage is now the subject of discussion. The Home Secretary. Making a statement in the Commons about the biggest security threat this country has ever faced.

The day John Reid/Charles Clark/Jack Straw faces the same discussion about his body is the day I will accept that men and women come under the same pressure. The argument that women also do it to men is a total red herring because a) they don't to the same extent and b) men are allowed to be successful for other reasons than their bodies.

Also, children have now absorbed this to an unacceptable level. It always gets me that we don't beat ourselves up about the fact that we are not as brainy as Stephen Hawking or as speedy as Paula Radcliffe. But we somehow are supposed to have the same figure as Jordan or Posh or whoever is your model of choice. All these "aspirations" are extreme and unrealistic but only one has become mainstream.

Is it really, margoandjerry? I can't imagine discussing the womans cleavage, but I've said some choice things about her before. Canne stand the bint, but there we go.

You're right though, there was a shedload of coverage about Condaleeza Rice's hair and outfits.

Anyone who thinks that men's magazines are no different to page 3 from the 80s have a look here and click on Lads Mags - A Quick Tour

Oops - you need to click on issues on the left hand side first then scroll down.

The website is dreadfully put together.

"The argument that women also do it to men is a total red herring because a) they don't to the same extent and b) men are allowed to be successful for other reasons than their bodies."

i'd disagree with that.i think everyone sexualises the opposite sex.it's human nature, women may do it differently or may be affected by different advertising making it pointless for ads aimed at women to employ the technique, but they still do it.flicking through the sisters copy of heat their just to see if i could see an example of it and the two things i noticed. firstly a nice torso of the week section featuring a scantily clad celeb and secondly in this womens magazine i noticed more bitching about fat celebrities then you would find in any issue of fhm.
as for being successfull for other reasons than looks i am not sure of any studies or figures so i am ilequipped to argue with you on that point.

Awful website but interesting content.
They might be fighting windmills, though, as
the momentum has definitely shifted online.

Margo, I have come across the odd women
who has been allowed to achieve success
for other reasons than her body.
Seems to be catching on, if you ask me.

You are right, the situation with us
men is not quite as dire but various
industries (cosmetics, media, entertainment)
are pushing very hard to change that.
And succeeding at a surprisingly fast rate.

But we somehow are supposed to have the same figure as Jordan or Posh or whoever is your model of choice. All these "aspirations" are extreme and unrealistic but only one has become mainstream.

But it is the women that think this is the ideal, not the media or the men. The media report it and women think I need to be like that.

I don't think anything has changed, I do think women ARE more powerful and are using what they have knowing how gullable and visual men can be.

Men today are portrayed much worse in the media, always shown to be the inept, weak ones. I like mens magazines, they are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I would never tell another woman how many sexual partners I have had but have and will tell men. I am not judged as harshly by men.

I like to look at well formed men and I like porn but no one sees that in the same way

amen: drat! I am going to have to re-think my position The truth is, I would be ecstatic if FHM et al didn't exist, but then again I am anti-censorship, so that doesn't really work, does it? Harrumph. Might have to wait until my brain grows back a bit - am deffo not going to have more children, so all in good time

What about diet coke break, aero bubbles, all the aftershave adds especially lacoste (my fave at xmas)

MEn are sexualised too

Lio - I think the censorship argument rests on whether/how far it can be shown that pornographic imagery leads to RL violence against women. Anti-porn campaigners like Catherine McKinnon and Julie Bindell would argue that it does, but it's such an ambiguous area with so many contributing factors that it would be difficult to come up with any conclusive research, I would guess (though I'm no expert).

My feeling is that the best way to fight this crap is for women to simply tell their menfolk that they won't stand for it. Porn has only become widely culturally accepted because women have allowed it to be - some willingly, but most reluctantly.

I don't see lads mags as being the big problem here, they have been around some way or another for decades and i don't think they are the main influence on young teenage girls. What i do think is the main problem and the biggest influence is the 'celebs' like posh, Jordon, Nicole Ritchy, Paris Hilton etc, they are the ones who are setting unrealistic and dangerous standards towards teenage girls. They are in the mainstream all the time and young girls 'look up' to them and want to be like them and it's very scary to think that our children are looking at these women as rolemodels.

Also, the clothing industry has a lot to answer to

At 18, my sister was 7.5 st, under 5ft. She wore an 8 and it was hard to find. Today she is 9 stone and still wears an 8. Clothing has changed sizes. Size 0 is just a repackaged size 8. 10 years ago I was 12st9lb and could only just get into a few size 16s but mainly size 18s. I am over 15 stone now and still wear a size 18! Something has definitely changed where sizes are concerned

Why do they do this? Because women want to wear smaller sizes. Not for anyone else, just vanity (after all, no one can see what size you wear unless you leave the tags on!)

Basic porn is disliked cos the women are barbies and we don't look like barbies (in the main) Why do people have a problem with men watching it? Because our insecurities make us think our men want women like the porn babes, when all they want is to see a womens bits. Men are sexual creatures and all too often, women don't want sex (unless they are after a man or a baby) so men relieve themselves. Women have used sex since the beginning of man and will continue to do so

Everything is sexualised because sex sells, always has, always will

Actually porn showcases a far greater variety of shapes and sizes and presents them all as sexually desirable than mainstream entertainment media does. OK, porn films don't feature the performers airing their views on quantum mechanics or multiculturalism, but Stephen Hawking doesn't get asked for recipes, nor does anyone want advice on new and unusual sex positions from David Tennant (Ok I'm prepared to be slightly disagreed with on the last one because I know some folks might sort of fantasize about that...).

Quote: "My feeling is that the best way to fight this crap is for women to simply tell their menfolk that they won't stand for it. Porn has only become widely culturally accepted because women have allowed it to be - some willingly, but most reluctantly."

It's all very well for our generation to say pick and choose but I wonder what sort of choices the post Big Brother generation will really have when they have grown up with this stuff being mainstream.

policywonk, I don't think we are talking about
porn as such on this thread.

My wife could tell me off for watching a Lynx
advert but I doubt that will solve anything.

I think the real problem are the celebrities who are getting skinnier by the minute. If say a 16yr old girl is starving herself to be skinny it's not because men are forcing this unrealistic standard upon her, it's more like she looks up to the likes of posh or Paris Hilton and wants to be like them. I really do think it's women who put pressure on other women and girls to look a certain way rather than men.

In my experience the men i have spoken to always say they prefer 'real' women with curves, lumps and bumps. Not bones poking out etc. Yes men look at porn and probably fantasise over those women but i think thats all they are... a fantasy. In the reality of it all, i doubt men would want to have them as their wives or respect them in anyway.

Porn isn't the issue. No problem with porn.

What I object to is the over-sexualisation of society in general. Which has been done to death on this thread already so won't repeat it.

I think the main damage is to children though - I'm quite old enough and bloody-minded enough to resist any attempts to make me feel inadequate about my appearance - I have very little interest in magazines, pop music etc anyway. But what about those children who will grow up thinking they are too fat, too ugly, teeth too crooked, bad skin or whatever. And the bar has been raised so much further than it was a few decades ago.

minorityrules, nobody is suggesting that women don't also lust after men or that this isn't sometimes used to sell things. The point is that the extent of women's portrayal as pieces of flesh is so extreme that it is difficult for any woman to be unaffected by it. Here are what I view as the key indicators that this is a PROBLEM and not just normal sexual relations and a result of men/women/human nature

The word Pimp has become mainstream and features in chart songs - is there a filthier profession? Procuring and selling another human being for your own profit? Compare attitudes to slavery now against attitudes to pimping in the sex industry. Nobody would try to "cool up" the slavery industry. And yet somehow the word pimp has become cool.

TV channels with a high proportion of viewers being children (such as E4) relentlessly showing videos of fully dressed men accompanied by (usually faceless - seriously masked or hooded or even just blank-faced and expressionless so they don't exist) but basically naked women writhing.

Vast increase in cosmetic surgery particularly breast implant type surgery among women all "doing it for themselves". I don't see that many men going along for bicep implants...

Even children's TV programmes - the male presenters are dressed for a trip to the park - jeans and t shirt. The girls are dressed for a night out on the tiles. This did not used to happen - think Lesley Judd! Attractive, yes. Overtly sexual, no.

Playboy stationary sold in WH Smith. Pencil cases and the like - clearly aimed at children. WH Smith used to be somewhere to buy your Letts Revise Maths. Now it's somewhere to allow your daughter to unwittingly support the adult porn industry because she thinks the bunny is cute. Ditto thongs for 8 year olds.

I actually think that some women have made a lot of this happen because the needy, famous for five minutes type women have seen the quick bucks available to them if they take their knickers off and as a result it has become mainstream. Think Abi Titmuss.

Of course it has always happened to an extent but what's depressing is that it is still happening and actually becoming more extreme just as women's life chances are expanding.

The way I judge whether something is demeaning for women or just a "reasonable expression of sexuality" is to think "would the men I know do it?" After all, men have a sexuality too. Would my brother go along to an all male pole dancing class at his local gym under the guise of fitness? Ummm no. Sexuality my arse. It's demeaning nonsense.