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Michael Jackson and the new documentary

618 replies

joystir59 · 27/01/2019 12:08

Leaving Neverland, being shown at the Sundance film festival and in the spring on Channel 4....I love his music and have believed he was vilified by the racist media, and by greedy individuals and families after his money; but am really not so sure of his innocence any more. I guess that's my aibu- that we have to listen to his accusers don't we? I was sexually abused as a ternager, and not believed. It was a profoundly damaging experience.

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MargotLovedTom1 · 27/01/2019 15:46

There is no excuse or mitigation. He had endless resources available to access therapy in order to come to terms with his dysfunctional childhood, and his predilections, but he chose to repeatedly cherry-pick small boys to use for his sexual gratification, discarding them when they were older and less appealing (to him).

Cornettoninja · 27/01/2019 15:47

sadlesnakes, I agree but both are assumptions. Neither should be presented as fact to fill in the blanks.

Subtlecheese · 27/01/2019 15:49

I thought he was guilty and still do. But so many people were intimidated by his power, by him having been abused, of his race that they were too weak to intervene.
Easiest way to get away with anything, leak just enough about your "personal demons" and if course pay everyone off.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 27/01/2019 15:50

Even if Feldman and Culkin are both being truthful about MJ not abusing them then that doesn't mean much tbh. It's not exactly unusual for abusers to pick and choose their victims is it? Maybe two film stars simply didn't appeal to Jackson the way someone potentially more vulnerable did.

I was raped when I was younger by a family friend. My sister also grew up around this family friend but he never touched her. No idea why he chose me but there you go.

DistanceCall · 27/01/2019 15:51

Also, I don't think that, even if he was an abuser, that means that you should stop listening to his music.

Firstly, it was a collaborative effort - many more people were involved (writers, musicians, etc.) Secondly, he was a musical genius, and a seriously fucked up human being. Neither aspect negates the other.

I believe one of the most interesting parts of the documentaries is that they talk to the (then) children's parents, in order to fathom how on earth they allowed that to go on. The man was sick, but the parents (presumably) were not - how on earth did they fail to protect their children like that.

Prometheus · 27/01/2019 15:52

It's an interesting topic - innocent until proven guilty but also 'we believe you'.

BoneyBackJefferson · 27/01/2019 15:52

It’s really something that people experience a moral quandry weighing up listening to pop songs against children being sexually abused.

Not when you consider that mj has had influence over huge swathes of music. saville can be cut from totp, no reruns of his show. Similar can be said for harris and glitter.

But mj would be difficult to remove entirely from pop culture.

At least that is how I read it.

DeRigueurMortis · 27/01/2019 15:52

There is no excuse or mitigation. He had endless resources available to access therapy in order to come to terms with his dysfunctional childhood, and his predilections, but he chose to repeatedly cherry-pick small boys to use for his sexual gratification, discarding them when they were older and less appealing (to him).

^

I was going to write a post but Margot has pretty much nailed my opinion already.

The only thing surprising here is a) how many people still don't believe it b) how many people attempt to offer mitigation for his actions based on his childhood c) why it's taken so long for a documentary like this to finally come out.

picklemepopcorn · 27/01/2019 15:53

I think he was everything he was described as. Paedophile, neurotic, abused child, deeply damaged.

I'm going off his music, but bizarrely still find his dancing fascinating.

Do we totally reject the work of a genius because of their behaviour?

DobbyTheHouseElk · 27/01/2019 15:56

Jeremy vine spoke about this last week. To erase his music. He said it was easier with glitter as it was shit to start with. But MJ music would be missed. Not by me, its not my choice of music.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 27/01/2019 15:58

Innocent until proven guilty and I believe you do not conflict imo.

It is perfectly possible to think people should have the right to a fair trial whilst also listening to and supporting (alleged) victims. It's not a one or the other situation and nobody is suggesting that those accused should just be thrown to the wolves just because we are taking the (alleged) victims claim seriously.

It's also interesting to me that people only seem to think that the person being accused of being an abuser is innocent until proven guilty and not the person they are accusing of lying about being abused...

Newsername · 27/01/2019 16:05

Thanks for that explanation boney. I was trying to find a way to explain why I’d feel conflicted.

His music shaped pop music today. There are so many artists out there today who based their music and dancing on MJ. How do we suddenly start ignoring this? It’s devastating.

CanIcryandlaugh20 · 27/01/2019 16:05

No doubt in my mind his guilty.
However the parents wtf like why would you let your kids stay with a grown mum and share a bed with them ??

PositiveVibez · 27/01/2019 16:07

*Do we totally reject the work of a genius because of their behaviour?"

I personally can yes. I always feel a bit sick when one of his songs come on the radio.

I have never watched a Roman Polanski movie.

I will no longer watch anything with Kevin Spacey in

The way John Peel is lauded makes me sick.

The list goes on.

Just some of the few examples.

Anyone who has been imho - guilty, accused of sexually abusing children, yes, its pretty easy for me to not separate the two. You may see him as a genius. I just see him as a peadophile.

DeRigueurMortis · 27/01/2019 16:08

I find it very difficult to separate the man from the music to be honest, particularly because his commercial success and star power was what gave him the ability to conduct himself as he did.

Take heed that it was always boys, never girls in his juvenile entourage - red flag there for someone "just" liking children....there was a very clear "preference" being played out wrt sex and age of his "friends".

Abcdefghii · 27/01/2019 16:10

Another one here who thinks he's as guilty as sin.

If the average Joe from down the street was known for befriending young boys and sharing his bed with them, no way would anybody buy into the crap about it being normal in his world because he was a misunderstood soul who never grew up himself.

I don't know how the parents can live with themselves putting money and association above the safety of their children.

TidyDancer · 27/01/2019 16:16

This exchange between David Baddiel and Chris Lang on Twitter recently sums it up.

Michael Jackson and the new documentary
Abcdefghii · 27/01/2019 16:24

Whats the gist of the exchange @TidyDancer ?

I don't have twitter personally

TidyDancer · 27/01/2019 16:27

@Abcdefghii did the photo not load? In a nutshell, DB was saying about being conflicted about how to regard MJ's music and CL replied with the suggestion that art should be view separately from its creator.

Burpsandfustles · 27/01/2019 16:31

How does a few other child actors saying he did nothing to them prove his innocence over what other men have said? Maybe those kids were too high profile... Money of their own.. Maybe there are many reasons why he didn't abuse them.

So many boys have come out about it, in my mind he was a prolific child abuser.

Abcdefghii · 27/01/2019 16:32

It didn't load on my phone no @TidyDancer thank you for clarifying :)

Burpsandfustles · 27/01/2019 16:32

De rigur very true about boys only

dayswithaY · 27/01/2019 16:37

I remember in the early 90s the allegations first came out and he was interviewed by Oprah and Martin Bashir separately. For me there were red flags all over but most people I know just refused to believe it. At the time I thought that one day the truth will all come out. It is inevitable that now he's dead and the alleged victims are adults that this is the time. After MeToo and Savile people just don't revere celebrities like they used to and people just aren't happy to cover up anymore. Hopefully other abusers will be exposed now too. I think it was Jimmy Carr who said that if you were a paedophile wouldn't you live at Neverland too?

picklemepopcorn · 27/01/2019 16:38

I think you have to view art separately from its creator, assuming that abuse was not part of the art. Those who abuse children in the making of art, their art must not stand. (I'm thinking of a photographer, an artist, and potentially people who put children at risk in filming movies.)

AhhhHereItGoes · 27/01/2019 16:40

Like other posters I think he likely did do what he was accused of. However, I feel he wasn't completely in touch with reality and social norms.

He has had some pretty disturbing events happen in his childhood if the accounts by his siblings are to be believed - watching his father with prostitutes, for example.

I think he had no real understanding of boundaries both sexual and social. A tragic individual but one that did unforgivable things nonetheless.

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