to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

“Betrand, except that there are posters on this thread who said this method did do them harm at school.”
Specifically tables learning?

Nope. Ofsted don’t care whether you do this or whether the kids can parrot levels.
“There is no expectation about how primary schools should carry out assessment or record pupils’ achievements in any subject, including foundation subjects.”

I know what Ofsted say on their website. However, what Ofsted say on their website and what Ofsted say and do on inspection are completely different things. The requirements for marking/non requirement for full marking in a million different colours, followed by mini essays on how something could be improved are a good example;

Ofsted: We aren't particularly concerned about marking
Ofsted in School (having found one book belonging to a kid who was absent post surgery and has just handed in their book on return): Books are not marked. Feedback to students is inadequate.

Ofsted say that marking doesn’t have to be done in a particular way (e.g. triple marking) to satisfy Ofsted, BUT that the school marking policy should be followed. So if the school policy says that books should be marked in green pen with purple follow-up weekly and they’re not, that will be noted.

Learning multiplication facts is beneficial- but some kids just will never be able to do it by rote at speed.
And this is in no way indicative or linked to mathematical ability.
However teachers need to recognise that competitive maths can have a real detrimental effect on children - this leads to children thinking that speed is all important.
As for a poor role model ! I'd rather a maths teacher who could empathise with the students and find ways to motivate them - than one who had a limited view on success based on mental arithmetic rather than mathematics.

Good discussion though.

Ofsted say that marking doesn’t have to be done in a particular way (e.g. triple marking) to satisfy Ofsted, BUT that the school marking policy should be followed. So if the school policy says that books should be marked in green pen with purple follow-up weekly and they’re not, that will be noted.

Yes, our SLT believed that as well. Until the inspection before last.

I think when it comes to maths speed is important.

I never learnt my tables by rote and even now having an alevel in maths that certainly holds me back when it comes to maths because I haven’t got that instant recall.

My dd was “shit at maths”. Learning her tables a) gave her confidence and b) gave her a tool that meant that she could and did succeed at maths in a way that she never thought she could. Yes. The important word there is tool. It helps children subitise number facts and gives structure. Just as learning phonics is helpful in making sense of spelling.

You need to consider carefully the impact on your child of what you do next:
1) Agree that this was something that was missed and work with your child to improve and see them move up the chart

2) Complain to the school and have the chart removed so that your child doesn’t have to see anymore that they need to practise their tables.

But those aren't the only alternatives, noblegiraffe. There's a third one where OP complains and the chart is removed, and other means are found to encourage the child to learn their tables, whether by practising rote-learning or otherwise. And surely that's the best alternative? If a child cannot move from the bottom of those lists due to learning difficulties, seeing his name constantly at the bottom is, if anything, going to be a massive disincentive both to learning tables and to being in school at all.

When I was in school and a child didn't know their tables like everyone else the parent made sure they did.

What if they were very dyscalculic and simply couldn't? The most brilliant parent in the word may not be able to overcome that.

If you were bottom at something, you worked hard so that you weren't.

But, again, there are pupils with learning difficulties who can work their socks off and will still be bottom. Or it will simply be the case that they are in a class of children who find maths relatively easy; even in a very able class, someone has to come bottom, and the chances are that it is going to be the struggler, no matter how hard they work.

Please take a step back and a long, hard look at yourselves. Most of you probably wonder why English schools aren't doing well. This is why. This.

If we do, we would be mistaken. English schools aren't actually doing too badly in league table terms. In the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study, for instance, England is in 8th place out of 45 countries. We've also risen significantly in both science and maths.

A child who is at the bottom of a times table chart will have strengths in other areas and will be praised/listed accordingly.

Great, if it happens; but what if it doesn't? And in a lot of schools it really doesn't. Some are doing this because of the prospective focus on times tables in key stage tests, so the only lists they have up are the tables ones. Some will only record achievement in the things that can be easily quantified, such as times tables and spellings; they won't record things like who did the best drawing or who wrote the most imaginative essay this week, or indeed who was the most helpful or the tidiest.

And, of course, if a bully wants to find an excuse to torment a child, this is a godsend to them. "Oh, look, Mary's at the bottom in the times tables chart again." The bully won't stop because actually there's another chart showing Mary doing rather well in French.

And, of course, if a bully wants to find an excuse to torment a child, this is a godsend to them. "Oh, look, Mary's at the bottom in the times tables chart again." The bully won't stop because actually there's another chart showing Mary doing rather well in French. The thing is children know exactly who is best at what.

Good grief. Schools really suck.

So I am right with you OP on the evils of rote learning - however the real danger of rote learning is using it instead of understanding what you are doing. If kids are parroting off 6x7 = 42 without any understanding of what the x means, or why 6x7 = 7x6 etc. then rote learning is dangerous.

You DS appears to understand perfectly well what multiplication is, how it works and when to use it. Doing the rote bit will just speed up his mental arithmetic at this point. I was the same at times tables..best at maths in the class, slowest at times tables tests. So I went home one night and just drilled them in. Went from bottom to top in a week.

What happens to the knew poor sod left publicly at the bottom of the pile is something more people should give a shit about than apparently do according to this thread.

Bullies don’t need charts to find victims. And rapid recall of tables is incredibly useful. It’s better if you understand the process first, but if you don’t, getting answers right is such a boost to the confidence that it will make learning the maths behind the tables a million times easier.

There’s a national times table test coming at the end of year four from next year on. There’ll be much more of a focus on rote learning of times tables for many years to come now. Nature of the beast for schools, yet again...

There's a third one where OP complains and the chart is removed, and other means are found to encourage the child to learn their tables

Well I was assuming they wouldn’t remove the chart and abandon times tables completely. But removing the chart doesn’t remove the knowledge that the OP’s DS was at the bottom, it simply removes the opportunity to move from the bottom. He may improve his timetable knowledge but he won’t see the fruits of that in relation to the thing that upset him.

Bullies don’t need charts to find victims.

They don't but it's another thing for them to use that is basically being provided for them by the teacher.

If learning tables by rote work for some, that's fine, it worked for me. Other methods may work better for some as everyone is different. The chart on the wall is unnecessary though. The majority of teachers in my children's school have managed to motivate the children without sticking s chart on the wall. The only chart they have is for achievement which may be for a particularly good piece of work, being helpful, being kind etc. All the children regardless of ability have a chance of being awarded an achievement point.

My ds has just spent 2 years full time in a mainstream class, he is working at a level 2

and 3 years behind his peers in the class (depending on area). He would be at the bottom of any table up on the wall....
He works unbelievably hard despite many challenges that the other children do not have.
He also needs to know that he is making making progress and achieving.
When he sees how much he struggles compared to others or if the work is too challenging he hits himself on the head because 'his brain is stupid'...who needs bullies heh?

Instead of telling him "never mind, you're good at other things" why not tell him "if you want to get better at this you need to practice" ? Even if you are totally terrible at something you can improve.

hazeyjane

That's heartbreaking to read. His brain is most definitely not stupid.

I hope his teachers are reassuring him that they can see how hard he is working and that is the only thing that matters. This is why it's so important that children have individual targets and rewards and don't get ranked on a chart on the wall.

He's doing his best, that's all that matters. I bet he's an amazing little boy.

Instead of telling him "never mind, you're good at other things" why not tell him "if you want to get better at this you need to practice" ? Even if you are totally terrible at something you can improve.

True, but there still doesn't need to be a chart on the wall.

Thank goodness the Welsh curriculum has moved on.

this is teaching by using shame - there is no need for it!! Check out Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards

If learning tables by rote work for some, that's fine, it worked for me. Other methods may work better for some as everyone is different.

There is no "other method" to learn times tables to instant recall that avoids rote learning. Rote learning has its place in education, research is now showing that instant recall of facts like times tables, frees up the rest of the brain to deal with the cognitive load of learning the new information.

Competition isn't inherently a bad thing. Again, research has shown competition can help motivate low achieving boys in particular.

Whether or not there is a chart, your son needs to improve his times table recall. That's a fact.

bertrand I really disagree with you there. Learning tables when you don't understand the concepts is a terrible idea. I've met kids who think maths is all just remembering dumb facts and supplying remembered answers to known questions. Rote learning won't always lead to that obviously but I've seen enough cases where it has to think you should only learn times tables when you know what they are for!

The same goes for learning number bonds as a substitute for adding and subtracting.

You need to understand what times tables stand for. But that is not a difficult concept to grasp. After that it is just rote learning. There is no other way to learn it. It is why classes in the past sued to spend some time just chanting tables out loud as a class.