to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

Learning times tables is an absolute prerequisite for making any progress in maths.
Displaying results I'm not so keen on but rote learning really is the most efficient method for the vast majority of pupils.

swishyinhersatinandtat I don't think it is a way to teach. I think it is a very silly way to ensure those who are turned off by school and learning remain turned off. Very sad. I would complain.

Not saying your child is but some will be turned off by school and learning for a lot of different reasons.

Would you complain if your child was at the top or even middle of the table?

It only concerns you because he's at the bottom.

Learning times tables is about practice and memory, there is no mathematic skills involved, if this isn't his strength its because he is not practicing as much as the other kids.

SarahAndQuack

If you’re still chanting, then you haven’t learnt TT by rote.

Of course you have. That is what 'by rote' means. It has its origins in medieval English and means specifically things you chant. And here, btw, I do have specialist knowledge.

If you are still chanting you haven't yet learnt. You can be considered to have learnt when you can recall the answers instantaneously (whether you learnt them by rote or any other method).

This is the difference between applied maths and memory recall. The children able to remember the times tables by rote may be no good at maths itself. Remembering is just that, memory. Your son is good at maths...applied maths...tell him not to give a sh*t about the scoreboard at school as it means nothing, because it doesn’t.

I think by year 4 it's ok. So important tol;earn them. Are you helping him to learn by practising in the car etc?

The only chn that shouldn't be included are those with recognised issues, development delays etc

My university sometimes read out peoples names and their scores to the whole year. I don't see what the problem is. It might even help children cope with disappointments in the future.

Oh we have this op and I hear you. They have to get 100% or don't move up. Even if you get 99%. I mean, where in the real world do you have to get 100%? To pass exams at the higher end it is usually in the mid 80%'s isn't it?
What really upset me was that the golden child got to move up on 99% because he started crying and the teacher, cruelly I think got him to stop crying by using my child as the butt of a joke....oh don't worry golden child, (my dc) only got 99% this week so I'll move you up as I know you must have just had a bad morning. My child sat there trying to hold in tears because he'd been shamed in front of the class. Wtf style of teaching is that?
Constantly dangling carrots that some children never get to nibble.

at our school children are awarded badges to show how well they are doing in their times tables. great if you you have a good memory and can recall ...horrible if you struggle.

Ambs81

"Would you complain if your child was at the top or even middle of the table?"

Was that to me or the OP?

If to me, I think it is a really bad way to 'shame' children into doing things by listing who has done well and who has not.

To my knowledge neither of my children has never come home and told me they are the top of a league of results on a school wall. But one of my kids has come home and told me in tears how they had to shout out their scores in class.

It's good to value and praise kids, of course, but a league of who has done well and who has done badly is, IMHO, a very old fashioned and unkind way of doing things.

Rebs1988 "My university sometimes read out peoples names and their scores to the whole year. I don't see what the problem is. It might even help children cope with disappointments in the future."

I don't think being shamed at school for doing badly helps people cope with disappointments later. I think it is fairly well known that actually this has the opposite affect.

For some appearing bottom of a list or calling out a score would be a form of humiliation.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/02/14/how-data-walls-in-classrooms-can-humiliate-young-kids/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7b32b267a4eb

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/14/is-it-right-for-schools-to-humiliate-children-as-punishment_n_7363392.html

I find it odd that some children at 8 can't remember a few times table facts yet could rattle off every dinosaur name under the sun at 4 and remember them with ease.

On the fence. I would have previously fully agreed it's a crappy way BUT our primary has gone for the Times table rockstars app the full school is on the rankings and it's forced my lazy but capable child to learn his tables in a matter of weeks doing what no other teacher or I at home managed to get him to do. He's 26th in the school, there are some younger children ahead of him but he started way past the 100th mark so he's proud of himself and now keen to get on the app every afternoon. They run stats competitions against 2 local school too.

My girls didnt know there times tables.We got a tutor to help them with maths.she every week gave them the times table square with gaps.she timed them and they got quicker and quicker until they had cracked it.

We do the challenge at the school I work at, however, we don’t have a league table and they just work towards the different certificates and then once they are on platinum, they work at completing it in a quicker time. They kids love it, and really strive to get better, however the difference with your sons school is there is no name and shame if you find tables hard (obviously the teacher keeps a list of who got what, but nobody see it), It’s a personal challenge.

DS1 is in bottom maths set and dyslexic. DS2 tip maths set (Y4). I understand your dislike of public scoreboards. But actually, times tables would be my one exception - anyone can learn them, with some work. However, if the quiz involves manipulation of the knowledge ie not just 3x5=? But rather share 37between six friends how many left over? in a time-pressure, public score environment, then I would not be happy with that. Hope that makes sense!

This was normal for my dc and for me 45 years ago
they aren't learning parrot fashion, they are being rapidly tested, surely this is different.
The best way to learn times tables is by rote, especially those that struggle. I knew all mine at 7 we all had to back then, and my maths level on leaving school was age 7, as suffer with learning difficulties.

Actually repetition is not the only way. We tried that for ages with my son and he still couldn't remember them. Then we bought a book which teaches them through stories, now he knows them. Also he does better calculating them than trying to memorise. Eg to do 4x7 he worked out two lots of 14. Not the way I do it but it works for him.

I memorised my tables as a child. My husband, who works in finance told me he never memorised his five times table, he just quickly calculates times ten then half. He can do this as quickly as I can recall my learned fact.

In response to OP public comparison is never helpful and schools should take into account different learning styles more.

There are Song CDs available for times tables as well

Or look on YouTube for songs changed to include times tables

My university sometimes read out peoples names and their scores to the whole year. I don't see what the problem is. It might even help children cope with disappointments in the future.

I find it odd that some children at 8 can't remember a few times table facts yet could rattle off every dinosaur name under the sun at 4 and remember them with ease

...if this isn't his strength its because he is not practicing as much as the other kids

But actually, times tables would be my one exception - anyone can learn them, with some work.

If you were bottom at something, you worked hard so that you weren't.

the full school is on the rankings and it's forced my lazy but capable child to learn his tables in a matter of weeks

Etc etc etc

I don't know which schools your kids go to, but at most schools aren't there children working to a very wide range of abilities and some with a variety of challenges?

Ds will not go to university, he couldn't speak at all at 4, let alone recite dinosaur names. He struggles with processing and memory. He has word retrieval difficulties meaning that even if he has tried to learn something by rote, the words sometimes get mixed up or he will say a completely random word. He actually loves maths and it is his best subject, he works extremely hard at it, he is not lazy and not 'not putting the effort in' but it will be a long time before he will be doing the times table's that his year 4 peers are doing.

They don't need their names on a chart on a wall, and Would you complain if your child was at the top or even middle of the table? yes I would, because it is crap.

Sometimes I remember how I used to think about inclusion, and I realise just how naive I was.

Perfectly1mperfect thankyou - he had a very hard 2 years of struggling and falling between the cracks until last year it reached a nadir. Fortunately his teacher that year has transformed things for him, and he is starting to get a sense of pride and enjoyment in the things he can do well (including maths!)...and no charts on walls.

@italiangreyhound

I’m married to the head of a primary school, and just find it amusing how parents hate children being ranked by performance when their child doesn’t rank well.
Not in 12 years has my husband had a complaint from a parent when a child goes home to say they’ve won a prize, or come 1st/ 2nd/ 3rd- the criticism only comes from the parents of children whose Child don’t perform well.
I don’t really think it’s fair to call it shaming, how your child responds to being graded/ranked against their peers largely depends on the personality and resilience of that particular child- some will love it, some will dislike it, others won’t be aware of it. If my ds was upset I’d suggest he channel that energy in spending some time on his times tables.
Throughout academia and their working life children and adults will have their performance data shared-either at an individual or team level. Teachers themselves have to provide performance data on their students and our judges on this as a measure of performance.
The purpose of this kind of activity is to add a competitive element to it, to build engagement from the children, by making it visual the children are aware and more aware, and also to gives full visibility to peers and parents.
I can’t see anything wrong with it.

Its an awful thing to do to kids that are struggling. To see their names bottom, repeatedly must just destroy any self esteem. I tell my year 4 girl to do her best and not to take any notice of this type of thing. Her teacher pointed out where she was on the class league table during parents evening, middle rated, and told her to do better. Having been aware this was going to happen ( he's massive on league lists!) , i promptly pulled out a list of my own , of the teachers she's had and promptly showed him where he was on that list, towards the bottom 🤣 ! Needless to say her position on the list hasn't been mentioned since 😂. As long as she tries her best , which she does, im good

My dd had a terrible time with Maths due to this type of teaching , untill we moved school ( house move ) and at the new school this wasn’t the practice , she used to say her mind would go blank & even though she knew the answer she ‘just couldn’t think ‘
Sadly one type of teaching doesn’t fit all