to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

If you’re still chanting, then you haven’t learnt TT by rote.

I'll wait for the open book GCSE
Maybe not the worst idea. The hardest exams in my life were open-book-bring-anything-you-want. There probably will be more of this as education becomes more digital and globalised.

From the OP

kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes.

No mention of chanting.

Oh, sorry, quickly I will say about games - good ones are things like sharing out, or little problems that can be visualised.

How many different patterns can you make out of 48 conkers put into rows? (Eg., rows of 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 ...).

Which shapes tesselate (I'd not use the word), and which don't? Which make up other shapes (eg., six triangles making a hexagon). Are there patterns to this?

What happens when you share out a pile of sweets to different numbers of children? Is there a pattern to which numbers of sweets/children seem to leave one left over?

Etc. etc.

I know a lot of similar things are done in schools, but I think these things are good. I think chanting tables is often harmless, but it is stupid to make it into such a high-pressured thing as the OP describes, and it is stupid to presume it is necessary.

derm, I actually read all of the OP's posts. She's posted a few times. Is that a problem?

If you’re still chanting, then you haven’t learnt TT by rote.

Of course you have. That is what 'by rote' means. It has its origins in medieval English and means specifically things you chant. And here, btw, I do have specialist knowledge.

But dividing sweets questions are already fairly ubiquitous in junior school maths lessons. The children work it out using their TT and factor knowledge.

How would you teach TT using games to afford the same level of instant recall that a student gets from rote learning?

Ok then, if you’re chanting then you haven’t learned it

Ok. I think I really do need to stop posting.

I've already acknowledged these games are around.

I don't know if there's a correlation between poor reading comprehension and an attachment to rote learning, but you are indicating it's a possibility.

noble has been around for ages and actually is a maths teacher.

Noble - are you aware of any maths games at primary that teach TT to an equivalent level of proficiency and speed than that of rote learning?

I know she's a maths teacher. I've been around for quite a while too. However, I am fairly sure that seniority on MN is not proof of knowledge. Or did you mean to imply something else there?

Why is it ok to have children listed for good and bad behaviour but not for knowing their times tables? I genuinely can't see the difference. Some children find it fairly easy to behave appropriately. Some struggle a bit ( or even a lot) and need to practice. and have incentives etc,.

Same for learning time tables , rote learning is easier for some than others.

I personally don't like names up on the board like that but I don't like it for behaviour stuff either Than again DS struggled with behaviour in primary school and less with times tables so obviously I would say that

No, but I think you’re stating that comprehension of maths concepts (factors, multiplication, division etc) are poorly taught by rote TT learning therefore rote TT learning isn’t useful.

Whereas IMO the latter is just a tool for the former. Using cited examples you’re saying that “games” that teach comprehension of factors, division and multiplication can be substituted for rote learning of TT. You’re also inferring that rote learning and “rules-based” maths is leading to decreased maths literacy. Whereas what I’ve seen with my 4 DC is that a good working knowledge of basic maths facts opens the door to fairly cool complicated problem solving.

The names could be listed in alphabetical order.

Even without this list, the children of a y4 class will know who's best at TT and who is not. Kids will know very early on in their school career which classmate reads the lowest/highest reading book, doing the difficult maths questions, can run the fastest, score the most goals, write the most...

Personally I know my TT by rote and accept it's next to impossible for some to ever learn but I think that OP's son should try to learn them to improve his score. The y4 TT test is why the school is pushing instant recall imo and knowing them could help his maths even more. My kids could learn the lyrics to a pop song fairly quickly and TT songs helped them. You can be good at maths and not know your TT but in OP's shoes I'd be helping the tote learning because learning to master a difficult task is good for the confidence.

SarahQuack, every single maths program I have ever come across uses "dividing cakes" type problems to teach and practice multiplication, in addition to rote learning of TT.

There is no such thing as a maths program which teaches children to chant TT without teaching them what multiplication means or how to apply it. It is a straw man position.

Chanting works for latin/greek grammar - anyone for amo, amas etc... just saying... I mean most kids can do it if they practice. But not great to have a whole class ranking. They should do it on times and kids should aim to improve their personal best.

To me, learning TT 'by rote' meaning beginning by chanting them. Alongside this, you talk about the number relationships (eg in the 4 times table, you are just adding 4 each time, or if you know your 5 times table, then you can work out what 5 x 8 is when you are learning your 8s). Also look at the easy bits to remember and use them to get to the next bit more easily (eg. I always remember that six sixes are 36 which makes it easier to get to 7 x 6 and 8 x 6, you know what 10 x 4 is so to work out 9 x 4, just take 4 away) stuff like that. Keep chanting.

When you have done that for a while, start doing quick fire, out of order tests, games, quizzes etc. Eventually, most children will be able to learn them and will be able to answer a times table question very quickly. That is what 'knowing your times tables' means to me.

Once they have done this, it's so much easier to apply to multiplying larger numbers, division, fractions, decimals and word problems involving all of these and then whatever comes next. Its much harder to do these things if you don't know your tables imo.

If you ask a child what 6 x 7 is and they have to say 7,14, 21,28,35,42 before they get the answer, then they haven't 'learnt' it yet, but they are on the way to learning it.

I have to say, of all the ridiculous tests and measures that the govt is putting on primary aged children, the Year 4 TT test is the one that i can't get my knickers in a twist over, as it will actually make the children's maths education easier if they know their tables.

nolonger The human brain likes patterns so the easiest way to make things stick in the memory is to attach patterns to them.

Little projects like how many ways can you arrange 48 objects into rectangles will help understand multiplication in terms of arrays, but what it won’t do is help kids remember 6*8=48. The results are too disconnected from each other, and not repeated often enough.

Generally the most popular way to teach times tables is to teach the patterns first (the individual tables) e.g. 3,6,9,12, then to start mixing it up (what’s 4x3?) then working backwards (what’s 12/3?) and then when that particular pattern is secure, to move onto another one, then to mix up the tables. I can’t see how it would be easier or better to teach recall of times tables by removing the patterns and doing stuff in a random order.

Note that I’m talking about the best way to teach recall of the times tables, not how to teach what multiplication means. Of course children should do lots of work on arrays, be taught that 3x4 means 3 lots of 4 which gives the same answer as 4 lots of 3 and so on. But that won’t help them remember the answer to ‘what is 4 lots of 3?’.

Bruno Reddy, the guy who invented the popular Times Tables Rock Stars game teaches his classes to roll numbers (chanting) to remember the tables. Then they play the game to practise recall. mrreddy.com/blog/2016/09/teaching-your-class-to-roll-numbers/ I think his aim is for all kids by the end of Y7 to know their tables properly - people may assume this is a given, but secondary maths teachers know otherwise!

“Generally the most popular way to teach times tables is to teach the patterns first (the individual tables) e.g. 3,6,9,12, then to start mixing it up (what’s 4x3?) then working backwards (what’s 12/3?) and then when that particular pattern is secure, to move onto another one, then to mix up the tables. I can’t see how it would be easier or better to teach recall of times tables by removing the patterns and doing stuff in a random order.”

Thanks noble. However, as beer and you are alluding to, it’s not 100% meaningless rote, is it? There are intrinsic patterns within the numbers and easy routes as part of that. Most kids won’t struggle with the 10x tables and so 9x something is easy to work out and 5X is half of 10 etc.

With regard to primary maths and the importance of TT it seems to move on very quickly. In year 5 my 10 year old was adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. I’m not saying this is particularly hard but without TT knowledge it would have been laborious to :

• work out the common denominator and
• adjust the fractions accordingly, keeping the same proportions

Ie if you’re adding 3/7 to 2/3 it helps if you know the 3 and 7 times tables. If you’re slow with this and/or counting on fingers your classmates will be well finished the easy questions and on the harder ones. While being fast in maths doesn’t necessarily make you good at it repetition and exposure does.

Time tables are a good tool for those not good/quick at maths. Like me, knowing my times tables still helps me in day to day life.

If you are good at maths, knowing your times tables is less important.

Essentially, learning your times tables is not a maths skill.

OP, your son is probably good at maths but just not great at rote learning... so he will shine at maths in secondary school but for now will just have tho accept times tables is not his strongest point... and keep practising them but also not worry too much!

“There is no such thing as a maths program which teaches children to chant TT without teaching them what multiplication means or how to apply it. It is a straw man position.”

This.

babygrey why will maths get easier in secondary school for someone who finds TT hard in primary?

As an aside, it didn’t sound like the OP’s son found TT hard, just that it wasn’t as effortless as maths had been before. He’s probably learnt them all by now

I think this is another of those situations where people think education should be aimed at the high attainers and devil take the hindmost. My dd, as I said, found maths incredibly difficult. If she had been expected to understand the mathematical concepts behind multiplication instead of rote learning her tables she would probably still, at 22, be counting on her fingers to find out how much 3 apples at 70p each cost. Great for the people who can happily manipulate numbers in their heads and are happily top of the class in maths. But the rest of us need tools. And knowing your tables is a fantastic tool.

It seems to me that the issue here isn't rote learning: frankly, so long as children learn they should use whatever method works for them.

It is however a major issue that the school shows up the children who struggle and effectively invites humiliation for them, particularly if it makes no concessions for learning disabilities. I can't see any excuse for that.

i am afraid it is normal. Children need to learn their times tables. My two children used to test each other at breakfast! When ever you have the opportunity say a multiplication table to your child and get them to say the answer back. The table facts they don't know can be learnt.