to think this is a crappy way to teach?

[swishyinhersatinandtat]

Just had DS9 come down from bed in floods of tears.

Turns out at school - he's in year 4 - there's a 'times tables challenge' - kids are tested on rapid recall of tables over a 3 minutes. According to how many get right they move up levels - bronze, silver, gold etc. This is on a board at the front of the class for all to see. He and two other kids are at the bottom.

It surprises me a bit as - please don't think I'm boasting - he's always been academically very strong at maths - lots of extension work in lower years, shining reports blah blah. That's not what concerns me though. What I don't like is displaying names like this - surely some kids are going to struggle more than others? Why display their names? Aptitude at certain things is so different to moving names up and down a behaviour chart. Also this seems to go against the whole school ethos of 'don't learn things in parrot fashion' etc.

I get that this isn't a major issue, but DS was very upset. DH thinks I'm being ridiculous and this is a normal way to teach. Opinions?

but I do think if something does no harm to most children, and helps some, then it is better than something that does a bit of harm to most children and actively harms some.

Explain how rote learning harms children?

How do children who don’t know times tables cope with mult-step complicated maths problems?
Why not allow an open book approach then? My primary school had times tables painted on the wall, to be consulted with when needed. I think the absolute majority of kids eventually learned it by heart anyway, but it was never a hard requirement.

“Well, it might often be faster, right? If you've truly rote learned tables, you might not be very quick, because it is not an efficient way of getting to the answer”.

What do you actually mean by “rote learning”? To me, it means you’ve been taught it by times tables so that it’s automatically just there. Split second, no cognitive effort, can move on quickly to the next step. Not - “Hmm. 4X7. Ok. 4x1 is 4, 4x2 is 8...” That’s not “learnt” at all.

derm, no, not all children do see that. That's my point. Some of them just chant it without doing the reverse process. And that can become a problem.

noble - as I said, I think it's harmful in the context of a wider strategy of teaching maths that is heavy on memorisation and low on understanding.

And no, not a maths teacher, and I am absolutely not trying to claim I'm a researcher in this area. If that's your area of academic research, I'm sorry if I offended you by disagreeing.

derm - a number bond is the result of any familiar expression, but without the tabular bit.

nolongersurprised - YY, I know people often use 'rote learning' to just mean 'automatic memory,' but I'm going off what the OP says. She specifies that her child has always done well in maths, but that 'chanting' and speed recall have thrown him. So I think she really does mean rote learning tables in tabular form, chanting them.

So for example, if you literally have to chant through 1x4 is 4, 2 X4 is 8, etc., until you get to 24, that is much slower than someone whose number bonds are good and who knows the answer to 4X6 without going through the rest of the table.

It's not actively terribly bad, but it is a little slow.

The problem is when all of your basic maths comes from applying rules slowly without a particular realisation that you could skip ahead by understand what is being asked. When that happens, I think there's a real problem. And, IMO, that's what is happening in schools.

@silvercuckoo I'll wait for the open book GCSE

The point is that children who haven't got good recall do find it difficult.

I think it's harmful in the context of a wider strategy of teaching maths that is heavy on memorisation and low on understanding.

Er, why do you think that learning your tables automatically means that teaching maths relies heavily on memorisation?

How much do you know about teaching maths?

We might be at cross purposes here. Rote learning to me implies I stand recall of any fact. NOT having to chant from 1.

Number bonds in a learning maths context usually relate to addition, to 10, 20 and 100 initially. Then into subtraction and jumping over the ten bond.

TT tests are great. No need to display the names.

sarahandquack
You keep mentioning that that rote learning of the times tables can be associated with poorer understanding? If we agree that it’s useful to have lightning-fast recall of multiplication tables, then how are they best taught to understand them? It’s not conceptual maths.

The OP’s son could have leant up to the 5X tables by now...

I don't think that learning your tables means teaching maths relies heavily on memorisation. Nor did I say it did. I said I thought it was harmful in that context.

My mum and brother both teach maths, one at university and the other as a tutor specialising in dyslexia. What I know, I know mostly from them. I do not have any advanced qualifications (though I have tutored GCSE maths and my students did much better than the schools predicted). I am not claiming to be a specialist or anything more than a person with an opinion. I'm sure anyone with specialist knowledge will find it easy to explain to me why I'm wrong.

Rote learning to me implies I stand recall of any fact. NOT having to chant from 1.

Generally starts that way, but the aim is instant recall.

I'm sure anyone with specialist knowledge will find it easy to explain to me why I'm wrong.

Working memory is freed up for problem-solving when basic facts reside in the long term memory and don’t need to be worked out each time.

There you go.

If these Primary children don't know their times tables off by heart, they're going to come well and truly unstuck in Year 11. I scribed a maths GCSE mock exam last week for a year 11 pupil who didn't know his tables and it was a complete disaster. Secondary Maths teachers are often not at liberty to waste time teaching pupils their times tables as they have other things they need to move on to. These should be completely embedded by the start of Year 7. Some GCSE papers don't allow the use of calculators. Irrespective of what they go on to study / do in later life, they need to pass their GCSE Maths exams. That is the reality of life in the UK at the moment.

nolonger - I think lots of games, getting them to understand what numbers are doing. It is conceptual. If it weren't, then I would not find adults who've passed GCSE maths but who are unable to understand how to divide a fraction by an integer.

Yes noble to starting as chanting.

derm - yes, we're at cross purposes then. I'm responding to the OP, who makes it quite clear she is talking about chanting. That's what I said was stupid!

It's not stupid as a place to start or as a method of remembering.

noble - nope, working memory is freed up just as well without chanting. Better, in fact. For obvious reasons.

Did you actually read the OP's characterisation of what she objected to? Because I did, and when I read her talking about chanting times tables, I responded to that. If you seriously disagree with me and believe in chanting tables by rote is good, that's fine. But I suspect that you don't believe that, and you've not actually read my posts properly before deciding I'm arguing for something you disagree with.

derm, no, it's not necessarily a stupid place to start, but - sorry, I feel awfully rude for referring to the actual OP here - but the OP did say her son has been doing well for a while. He's not 'starting'. He's been learning for a while.

Working memory isn’t freed up if kids don’t have instant recall of tables. If the OP’s kid did, he woudn’t be bottom of the chart.

“Working memory is freed up for problem-solving when basic facts reside in the long term memory and don’t need to be worked out each time.”

Yep. This.

sarahandquack if chanting and songs etc aren’t your preferred menthols of teaching TT and you think games would be better - what kind of games?

This is another of my 10 year old’s maths questions which is obviously factor based and this requires TT knowledge. How would you teach students to work it out using games? (Bearing in mind that every kid in DD’s maths group got it correct).

My Hay has fewer than 32 children in his class. Each student must play chess and soccer, and take part in a debate.

He divided his class into groups :

• 2 groups for chess
• 5 groups for soccer with 1 student left over
• 3 groups for debating with 2 students left over

How many students are in his class?

I think we're just disagreeing over what we think 'instant recall of tables' means, noble.

I know for many children rote learning is harmless and all sorts of other learning happens alongside it, almost without anyone noticing.

But the OP is concerned, and I think she is right to wonder whether or not this is best for her child, who suddenly seems to be finding it hard.

I'm going to leave it at that because it's so late, but I am interested and I am not ignoring any further posts.