To think a lot of people don't really care about others?

[marymarkle]

By others I mean those outside their family and friends. I know there are exceptions. People who volunteer and go out of their way to do lovely things for others who need a helping hand.
But most people vote for the policies that benefit them and their family, don't care about things that harm the vulnerable if they are not part of that group, and won't go out of their way to help someone who is not a family member or friend.

You don't have to be a virtue-signalling martyr to think that it would be nice to have a country where ordinary workers, and even the sick or otherwise unable to work, had a decent quality of life even if it did come at the expense of some other people not being quite able to do everything they could ever dream of.

I grew up in such a country. As far as I could see it worked well. It is still a better place for ordinary people in many ways. And- interestingly enough- recovered from the recession far more quickly than the UK. Austerity has not helped the British economy.

So no, I don't have to be a martyr at all to say "Austerity is a shit policy. It's not even good for the economy and it is absolutely disastrous for social cohesion or for producing a well educated engaged workforce that could make this country more competitive. It lays us open to political instability and demagoguery".

oh, and btw, I am not a Corbyn supporter

The happiest person I have ever met was a nun in an enclosed order. In material terms, she was poor but spiritually she was wealthy.

Ok, we don't all want to join a monastery but often people who have very little are quite content. As long as they have a roof over their head and food on the table, they don't seem to want much more. I admire that.

You don't have to be a virtue-signalling martyr to think that it would be nice to have a country where ordinary workers, and even the sick or otherwise unable to work, had a decent quality of life even if it did come at the expense of some other people not being quite able to do everything they could ever dream of.

Cory, this society depends on one section of society subsidising another. The problem is that if you remove the incentives for the subsidisers to accumulate wealth, they may very well decide to join the group who is being subsidised. Principles are great but human nature does not work that way. There needs to be a reward for hard work in the form of wealth accumulation. That is why communism is a failed project and socialism leads to a bloated self-serving bureaucracy.

I am not sure that the so-called Nordic model is so great. It has its problems.

You don't have to be a virtue-signalling martyr to think that it would be nice to have a country where ordinary workers, and even the sick or otherwise unable to work, had a decent quality of life even if it did come at the expense of some other people not being quite able to do everything they could ever dream of.

It's those ordinary workers, average people on not too much money that OP is talking about though. Most people who are looking after their own...because they have to. I also hate those wealthy people who don't pay tax, who make things difficult for others, who don't pay their staff enough. What I completely understand though is an ordinary person who doesn't want to pay any more tax because they can only just afford a family holiday each year, or who vote for policies that others consider to be racist because they're concerned about the impact of immigration on their occupation, or even those who don't want affordable housing in their area because they're worried about their house price because they had to work really hard to buy that house and will lose out if it's devalued. I don't necessarily agree but I understand and I don't think these people are bad or uncaring people, not at all. A lot of the population live precarious lives and the very fact that we could be one step away from more disadvantaged people, as a pp mentioned, is exactly why people feel the need for self preservation.

There are plenty of other ways to be there for your friends and family that don’t include bankrolling them. Emotional support, advice and guidance, practical assistance with help... you seem to imagine that I’m going to see my hypothetical children starve if they’re struggling, that isn’t what I mean at all!

To the poster above - I volunteer with the homeless, donate to a charity every month that helps people who didn’t go to private school or have rich parents get into competitive industries and hope to mentor with them too, I rent (as cheaply as I can find in London) and have no desire to own a house, and if I did buy it would be with a view to it being for life and not to sell and make a profit, and when I was self employed I chose not to take advantage of all the ways I could keep my tax bill low with spurious expenses. So yes I think I live out my values fairly well!

You don't have to be a total martyr to help random strangers. The way you vote, a bit of volunteer work, joining a union, simple things can make a big difference.

And the attitude that you do have to be a martyr if you point out most people don't actually care about others, is just a deflection and denial technique.

To the poster above - I volunteer with the homeless, donate to a charity every month that helps people who didn’t go to private school or have rich parents get into competitive industries and hope to mentor with them too, I rent (as cheaply as I can find in London) and have no desire to own a house, and if I did buy it would be with a view to it being for life and not to sell and make a profit, and when I was self employed I chose not to take advantage of all the ways I could keep my tax bill low with spurious expenses. So yes I think I live out my values fairly well!

I sincerely hope you don’t treat yourself to a takeaway, chocolate, bottle of wine, accept birthday and Christmas gift (or worse, buy birthday or Christmas gifts), go on holiday, the cinema, days out or buy new clothes when there are people with less than you that you could be donating that money too, because that would make you...well...a hypocrite

As it happens I don’t do Christmas gifts but that’s a ridiculous argument. Never at any point have I said people shouldn’t treat themselves, and in a society where wealth was evenly spread everyone would be able to afford to do so. Having socialist principles and doing things for the betterment of society doesn’t mean wearing a hair shirt and whipping yourself every morning you know

if I did buy it would be with a view to it being for life and not to sell and make a profit

What's wrong with that? We've done it twice now, bought a very cheap house that needed doing up, spent considerable money and effort in making it lovely and safe and then have sold it on. We weren't selling for crazy prices, just standard for the area, to buyers who were very happy to buy. Now we're in a position to buy a house with a beautiful garden near good schools and a lovely park in a different city with cheaper property prices so that we can bring up DS somewhere that we're all happy. What's selfish or immoral about that?

A lot of people don't care about the environment, the state of the planet, climate change. Let alone other people.

Humans are intrinsically selfish.

I just don’t think property should be a profit making industry full stop. But I’m having my words twisted again, I haven’t said moving house is selfish or immoral! Accumulating several BTL houses with the sole aim of making profit, perhaps - but even then I can see the need for rented property because not everyone lives in an area they want to be long term and buying is a huge commitment, not to mention unaffordable for many so I can see the service that career landlords provide

Unreasonable one, why do you think that people who care about others can't do anything for themselves at all?
Doing things for other people and giving things to other people can be done alongside looking after yourself and your family. It doesn't need to be either or.

There are plenty of other ways to be there for your friends and family that don’t include bankrolling them.

but if you had the finance to help them and you didn't use that out of principle, that's not nice. If even a loan or better a gift of money would make a huge difference - to buy their first home, to start a business, to go and study abroad, only using words of support and advice would not be that well received, and sound terribly fake. The most practical help is often cash.

Why shouldn't property be a profit making industry? Everything else is. The owners of Aldi and Liddle are there for the money, so are the manufacturers of baby milk and let's not go into the pharmaceutical industry. Ultimately, someone has to finance my pension!

Sadly I think society has taught people to be wary of caring/helping in a way. Only yesterday I read about a trap where men put a baby(doll) in the road to carjack people who stopped to help. I care a lot about others but my priority has to be my family (I don't expect others to prioritise them). Certainly I will help if I can even if it causes a level of discomfort in my life but there's a point that I can't cross (which is related to survival - a natural animal aim)

Sadly I think society has taught people to be wary of caring/helping in a way. Only yesterday I read about a trap where men put a baby(doll) in the road to carjack people who stopped to help. I care a lot about others but my priority has to be my family (I don't expect others to prioritise them). Certainly I will help if I can even if it causes a level of discomfort in my life but there's a point that I can't cross (which is related to survival - a natural animal aim)

@Theunreasonableone I'm not sure why paying a mortgage rather than rent is virtue-signalling/indicative that you're not genuine in caring about others. There is an extreme shortage of social housing and you think those who could afford to pay a mortgage should instead rent?

We were lucky enough to inherit a house and we had a house that we owned with a mortgage. We moved into the inherited house and let the house to a friend of a friend who was homeless at a rate to cover most of the bills for that house. No virtue signalling as I care little as to what you think of me but it was the right thing to do at the time.

watsmyname - i am referring to posters who believe we should be in a socialist society and trying to illustrate how ridiculous a notion that is. I also have a mortgage because I think that people should be allowed to better themselves and it doesn’t make them bad people or any less caring because of that.

You did a very nice and noble thing in my opinion.

My posts were supposed to be written in such a way to highlight how extreme communist thinking is.

I do what I can (the 3 Rs, considerate driver, volunteer at my dcs' schools, donations). However, I will still use private schools, private healthcare if necessary, do everything I can to give my dcs a leg up educationally and financially. I am completely against paying any more taxes. I also do not want to live near social housing if I can help it.

My values are not the values of others on this thread. The fact is people care for others in the context of their own value system. It does not mean I don't care for others, just that time and resources are limited and I allocate it according to my values.

Wasn't it Jesus who said the poor will always be with us. I cannot save the world but I can make the world a better place in my own way and through my dcs.

Ime people who are keen on deliberately not sending their children to private schools, etc despite being able to afford it are almost always from a privileged background. I come from a poor background and realise what a struggle life can be. I would do a lot to help my dcs. I certainly wouldn’t sacrifice their well being or have them forego opportunities because not everyone has the same ones. That’s life. I do want to live in a fair society but I recognise that not everyone can be equal and denying opportunity to my children won’t change the world.

Also it’s interesting that top earners pay a grossly disproportionate percentage of tax - the top 1% pay 28%. are these the selfish or are those who are taking more than they contribute selfish? Same with unions- are those who go on strike for better wages selfless or selfish? What about the tax payer or consumers who have to pay for this?

It’s easy to brand others as selfish and ourselves as virtuous. But is it really accurate?

I have used my advantages to give my children what they need to increase their chances of being independent, productive members of society. One of them in particular would have found that hard without a fair amount of support. I think spending my extra money on making sure my children don't need state support is pretty useful!

What it is with 'virtue signalling'?

Doing a nice thing is a bad thing because people might notice? It's better not to do the nice thing? So what if other people know you did a nice thing - who cares?

DonCorleone so you think the only way to show support to someone is by money, and anything else is fake? Jesus. You sound an absolute delight. So you’d rather have a wad of cash than people around you who’d support you with actions and words in a time of need? I know what I’d choose.

Homes are a basic human need and exploiting them meaning some people can’t access a safe place to live is wrong. I have no problem with general consumer goods (fashion, tech etc) being profit making. But a home shouldn’t be the preserve of the wealthy! Why should your pension come at the expense of someone else’s need to live in a secure home? In fact, why should anyone finance your pension except you?

I am perhaps conversely a great advocate of personal responsibility - for making oneself financially secure but also being a responsible member of society I.e not actively doing things that make it worse. And to the poster who said people who choose not to do these things are generally from privileged backgrounds - nope, poor working class upbringing here. I feel a great sense of pride at my achievements that I can’t imagine feeling if I’d sleepwalked through life on my parents cash (if they had any)

I agree with you op. But in my case my family care less about me than my friends

Things I’ve done, that I feel have benefited other people:-

At Christmas spent around £40 to put in the food bank and another £20 worth of tampons and towels

Hadnt long moved in and next door neighbours and their dc were really ill with cold/flu. So I went to the chemist and got them various cold remedies and plug ins for the dc’s room. Then took meals around to them every day until they were well. They were very grateful especially as they told their family they were unwell and they simply said okay we’ll see you in a week.

I know a guy in our town with serious mental health issues who refuses help
From his family. He’s been infront of me in the shop and I’ve paid for his food and water.

I always have random conversations with people when out shopping- it’s surprising what people will tell a stranger when they are down.

Was queuing in a store and all but one till was empty, they called for another check out person. The lady behind tapped me in the shoulder and gestured as to what was happening and I could see she was deaf. I know some sign but not a lot, but manage to have a whole conversation, where she lived, how many children and there ages etc, what her partner done. When I left she said thank you for talking to me no one does (I almost cried at that).

Me and exdp in a store, heard screaming, a young lad having a meltdown and people all watching. I whispered to exdp, he went to the other side of the aisle and moved everyone away and I done the same at the other end. We stopped people coming down until the lad became calm, (only about 10 mins), when he did his mum gave me a huge hug and said if we hadn’t done that when we did, she was on the verge of joining him crying on the floor, as he had been very challenging that day (he had autism).

So not much but they are probably the bigger things I’ve done