AIBU to think we over-pathologise very nomal human behaviour?

[Breakawaygirl]

Other threads have got me thinking about this....

We all know that diagnosis of anxiety, depression, autism and other emotional/mental health/neurological conditions are on the rise.

My question is, is it true that we are just paying more attention to conditions that were swept under the rug, or are we over-diagnosing very natural human behaviour.

I've often thought depression, anxiety and other conditions are very natural reactions to our modern world.

Many people wake up early only to be overworked, fed bad food, underpaid, come home to more work, unable to foster connections with loved ones and children, feel lonely, cut off (no community), big uncertainty in the future, pollution, overpopulation, extinction of animals, little nature in some animals and a very aggressive media that seems to have an agenda - surely to feel bad is NORMAL in these circumstances.

I often think the diagnosis is a way of saying it's the PERSON who has the problem rather than the way we conduct our society/culture as a whole.

That is not to minimise that many conditions are the result of neurology and genetics, but a huge component is nurture and lifestyle.

I've often felt that we live in human zoos and are behaviour and neurosis stems from that.

For instance exercise is a natural anti-depressant but most of us don't get enough.

Anxiety is proven to be exaggerated by social media and the idea that everyone is doing better.

Is it that people individually are sicker, or is society sicker?

Curious for people's thoughts.

Column A can change into column B though.
You can have a healthy brain, suffer situations that cause you to be depressed, then another situation can come along that tips you into chronic illness or morphs into a mental illness.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you and I think you are sending a few different messages at once but one thing I think you are saying that sounds interesting is that maybe we are not responding in the best way to to decreased mental health.

If we were to touch something hot and it hurt we would pull our hand away but the experiments show that a frog in cold water would boil if you increased the heat gradually. Our modern lives can cause harm by gradually adding harmful factors such as increased stress, indoor lives and poor diet etc but we only recognise the harm when it reaches such a state that it breaks us and even then we don't readily notice the factors causing us harm as we are too damaged to reflect and make the changes that would help.

OP what is your opinion on autism - do you think that is an example of over diagnosing normal human behaviour?

I think autism is a normal human behaviour in a minority of people. Identifying people with autism can open up all sorts of help and understanding for them. Years ago many people with autism were regarded as ‘weird’, badly behaved etc

@Breakawaygirl

I am afraid your use of the work 'lifestyle' to describe environmental factors like learned behaviour from families contributing to problems like obesity and depression suggests you are passing judgment. It is not a 'lifestyle choice' to have been raised on a diet of refined carbs and sat fats and develop a metabolism in response to those inputs. It is not a 'lifestyle choice' to be raised by a parent with a chronic mental health condition and develop anxiety disorders as a result of this. 'lifestyle' is a dog-whistle word used to imply blame for things that were often set so far back in a person's life that the work of unpicking it is far too much for an individual to do alone simply by 'making better choices'.

Explain this then.
My DF.s family.
West Coast of Ireland.
extended family.
Home grown food. Fresh fish caught from sea. No tv. no radio.
3 suicides.
Do not sentimentalise the past (not too distant past either). There were different pressures.
There was want and grief and pain and suffering that we probably couldn't deal with but we think because it looked like the conditions humans ought to thrive in, the kind we are best adapted for does not mean it counteracts a genetic predisposition to Mental Ill Health.
Similarly, the next generation have had the same pattern of suicides. Even down to the age the suiides occured in.
There are no ideal circumstances in my view.
Sometimes there are some for whom life is an endurance test

I agree with Names. I think we have much better at talking about depression and anxiety and the line 'you don't have to be unhappy' gets bandied about a lot. And I know you don't have to be unhappy if it is a mental illness that is making you unhappy, but I think humans do have to learn to be unhappy sometimes because that is how life works and I think teenagers have to know that it's ok to be unhappy sometimes too.

I think we are so frightened of depression that sometimes we don't let any darkness in, and at the risk of sounding trite, without darkness you don't have real light. I have been in a pretty dark place (saying good bye to a baby I thought might die) and I would say it affected my mental state for a while after, BUT I wouldn't want to have lessened that feeling because that incredibly dark moment is a product of how much I loved my child. Does that make sense?

I know a lovely family with multiple suicides in every generation, often by people who seemed to have everything going for them and everything to live for. So I don't think it is always environmental.

But yes, the way we live is bad for our mental health. DH and I have always prioritised family time (I was a SAHM, he changed jobs to be at home more), exercise and good food. We've had a lot of knocks, including me ending up in a wheelchair from a progressive neurological condition. We're pretty cheery though. I definitely think our lifestyle helps.

Control is a big factor too; practically everyone I know who struggles with their mental health feels trapped in some way.

And I've said this before, but I do think lots of ASD issues were masked in the past by the safe routine nature of people's lives. Life is much more unpredictable now.

Personally I would love to have been a hunter gatherer.

I think there's an inclination to label thoroughly unpleasant people as having personality disorders. Whilst being horrible is the sign that something isn't right in someone, can't it just be that an individual is a nasty piece of work? There are certainly different and distinct types of bad characters and also people who have been shaped in a horribly negative way by life experiences but I feel that to dismiss someone unpleasant as having a medical diagnosis isn't always appropriate. If people aren't within the normal parameters of nice, then they must be ill. For sure at times, but that seems like a cop out to me.

The reason why it's useful to view some depression as being attributable to society doing things wrong is that you can look for solutions there. If it's all attributed just to the individual's brain chemistry (and of course that will be true for many case), then we don't start looking at how society needs to change.

The way we live cannot he good for us, we are so far removed from our original beginnings, everything these days has to be instant, everyone has to look better, be faster, stronger, more confident, smarter all whilst being scrutinised by the world through a screen.
Children are being constantly pushed and pushed to be more academic and pass exams rather than being allowed to learn and grow at their own pace.
People are expected to sit at a desk long after their working day is finished.
People are stigmatised if they aren't in the gym or running 5k or eating healthy and god forbid if you're overweight!
I know parents who see their children for an hour a day max because of work/shook commitments, there's no cost family gatherings and dinners around the table.
I work so much that I haven't seen what's left of my family for more that 5 minutes in months even though we're close and they live in the same town. I wasn't brought up like that and it's taken a toll.
It all has an effect in mental health, hugely.

I agree with OP or at least my understanding of what they have said, and I am someone who has chronic MH problems. I have previously had chronic depression, sometimes accompanied with psychosis, and I have an ongoing, chronic diagnosis of GAD. My problems really began in childhood, or perhaps were always sort of there seen babyhood even with the anxiety, I don't really know. I also have a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome that I did not get until I was at uni (I am in my mid-twenties now).

The thing is, even if you think that it's totally understandable to fit diagnostic criteria for depression when you are going through something super shit, like bereavement, or whatever, recognising that as 'very normal human behaviour' does not solve the problem for that individual, and society will not generally make allowances for that person unless they are 'pathologised'. Like the PP saying about needing a fit note after a bereavement to have time off. If I lived in a world where my Asperger's/HFA needs would be met by employers/educators/friends/family with me just explaining what those needs are, how I behave etc then I wouldn't need a 'diagnosis'. I do think Asperger's/HFA is just part of the spectrum of normal human variation, the reason that I have difficulties with modern life is not because of those traits, it's because the world of today is not built with people like me in mind and people are not willing to make exceptions or help me unless I can point to a peace of paper with a psychiatrist's diagnosis on it. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered seeking out the diagnosis at all, because it's not a problem for me, I am who I am. However my emloyer, educator, family, friends etc would not accept 'I do x and please could you be a bit tolerant or do y for me because this is my personality', but they will (generally) accept 'I do x and please could you bit a bit tolerant or do y for me because I am autistic'.

With mental health too, when my depression had become ingrained and chronic I really needed treatment for it as it completely took over my life. I didn't know what the 'cause' was and for many years thought I didn't have one. After one long period of counselling it became clear that actually a lot of things that happened to me in childhood had built up one on top of the other and I recieved no support to process them and led me to the depressed state that I was in. I have mostly worked through that and have been in remission from depression for at least a year and a half. However I have struggled with low mood over the last 7 months since my DD was born as she is a very difficult baby (cries all the time, basically). I have seen a few GPs and HVs and all of them have suggested ADs for my mood, some of them very forcefully even though I explained that I have had far worse depression in the past (I wouldn't call how I feel now depression, compared to my previous experience, iyswim), and that I know that it's situational and will improve as DD gets older and improves (and it is, slowly). One GP told me that it didn't matter that I knew the cause, it was still depression, and I could still have treatment. I'm not sure an AD would have stopped me feeling shit about my baby crying most of the time she is awake, tbh. I say that as someone who has successfully had AD treatment in the past. But I don't blame people for opting to try them when they are struggling, regardless of knowing the 'cause' of their low mood or not (and for many people, they don't know). I think a big problem we have at the moment is the inadadequate access to talking therapies. I think a lot of people could process their poor mental health better and quicker and healthier with good quality talking therapies. It might mean a year of therapy for someone, but then they might not need any more, which is cheaper in the long-run than years and years of time off work, medication etc. But the NHS provision of high-quality talking therapies for people with complex/long-term/severe mental illness is completely inadequate.

I've wanted to post this exact thread before but didn't know how to do it without hurting people who might be a bit (rightfully so) defensive about these things because they've worked hard to have their issue dealt with and recognised by family and doctors etc.

I very often see people on here say "Dh has Aspergers/autistic traits" etc or claim they think XYZ is "on the spectrum" with no formal diagnosis. Everyone has these traits to a certain extent so if everyone has this, surely no one has it's part of the human condition? It's disrespectful to people who have Aspergers/autism as it basically downgrades their condition to "mildly annoying traits".

I have diagnosed OCD, and anxiety so I'm not a non-believer but like the OP I do wonder how much of this is down to the fact that humans are shit at humaning. If you locked a cat up to a computer and made it stare at it 3/5ths of it's day you wouldn't diagnose it when it acted mental. You'd say take the cat off the computer,. let it see a real bird.

I think the " mindfulness" "self care" shit actually makes it worse. Go outside and do something. Spending hours a days navel gazing is never going to make anyone better.

The doctors would like to medicate me, I know that the fact that I have no family connections, an internet addiction, and OCD are creating the anxiety. It's life style. I'm not really sure how to fix it without moving to a forest somewhere.

I do agree to an extent and that getting out in the fresh air and into more natural environments, eating well, getting good rest and having warm connections with family and friends help a lot.
It’s the base layer to good mental and physical health.

However, most people are a product of their upbringing and so many people have had parenting that has left them anxious or prone to depression or suffered some kind of trauma that it would help them to be able to deal with their issues as well.

A whole flipping industry has sprung up making money from it and it has infiltrated our schools. We are producing kids who are over-counselled by the time they reach 18 and they are unable to appreciate that life has its ups and downs

This x a million

OP what is your opinion on autism - do you think that is an example of over diagnosing normal human behaviour?

I think autism is a normal human behaviour in a minority of people. Identifying people with autism can open up all sorts of help and understanding for them. Years ago many people with autism were regarded as ‘weird’, badly behaved etc

^^

I have to say, I don't really know enough about autism to comment on this. I work with someone at work with undiagnosed autism (everyone seems to think he is autistic through his behaviour) and I think a diagnosis WOULD have been beneficial for him. I have not ever viewed autism as a disability - I think it is a different way of seeing the world which is put as a disability because it doesn't 'fit' with how we educate and work in the modern world, a bit like dyslexia. My brother has dyslexia but is amazing creative, practical and artistic. I am very academically bright but totally impractical and uncreative - I don't have a diagnosis for being impractical but he has one for being in-academic.

They theorise that many of the greatest minds were autistic. As such, I don't find it a disability, but it is perceived as one because we don't yet know what 'place' to put autistic people in. If we recognised their unique strengths and weaknesses, we might consider it a gift in some ways. Perhaps that is limited, I understand autism can be very difficult to deal with, but perhaps partly because people and society don't understand you, which is isolating.

Explain this then. My DF.s family.West Coast of Ireland. extended family.Home grown food. Fresh fish caught from sea. No tv. no radio. 3 suicides.
I understand this. My father was a farmer and as a young man had a complete nervous breakdown. He was hospitalised. He saw his situation as hopeless as the youngest of 7. There is a high rate of suicide amongst farmers. We're expected to be stoic. I do get a bit annoyed by some posts on here where the person says they suffer from anxiety. Anxiety is part of the human condition and completely different from full blown mental illness.

Some of our greatest minds have had bipolar, doesn’t mean it’s not a disability.

Another agreement from me - sort of. I was diagnosed with depression about 10 years ago and have been on and off low dose AD ever since. I know when I'm feeling 'a bit low' and i know when the depression is hitting. Its different.

I also know that if I eat a healthy diet and exercise regularly then I feel 'better'.

I believe that the rise in all the previously mentioned illnesses, syndromes etc is nature's response to all the rubbish we expose our bodies to these days - from GM foods to pollution of our air through motor vehicles, air travel etc to overuse of pharmaceuticals to pollution from our computer screens to over cleanliness of our bodies and homes. They all play a part in reducing our bodies ability to heal itself.

No, I'm not a clean eating, vegan who never drives or flies anywhere - I dont have the discipline or ethics to follow such a life although I do try and eat ethically and walk instead of driving. I do make the effort to help myself and I think a lot of people either can't or won't.

I think there is a pressure to always be happy, smiley, successful which doesn't resonate with real human experience and life. When people don't feel happy all the time they think I must be depressed. If they have a panic, they think this must be anxiety. Even if you have a great life, you will still sometimes wake up and just feel sad

This could be describing me - then a few years ago after a traumatic bereavement I realised that sad is normal at times, likewise 'down'
not every depression is clinical, it is sometimes situational and fleeting

• again, apologies for typos/spelling, typing on phone is not my friend today.

Some of our greatest minds have had bipolar, doesn’t mean it’s not a disability

^ It definitely is a disability. But I am not contesting that some people genuinely DO have mental illness, I am contesting that some people are diagnosed who really don't.

You hear people say, 'I'm so up and down, I think I'm bipolar'

I get up and downs ALL the time, one day I'm happy, the next sad, but I understand that this does NOT make me bipolar.

Explain this then. My DF.s family.West Coast of Ireland. extended family.Home grown food. Fresh fish caught from sea. No tv. no radio. 3 suicides.

^^

I would say this would be neurological mental illness. I would also suggest that it could be generational trauma - is there not a statistic that if a family member has committed suicide, you are more likely to? This could simply be because you have exposure to it, you see it as an option. I would also wonder if beyond mental illness (which is enough of a reason for suicide, don't get me wrong) some trauma did not happen.

I have known two people who committed suicide. One was a friend who killed herself at 28, she had been sexually abused throughout childhood and was diagnosed with anxiety and bipolar. The other was a son of a friend. He had no mental illness diagnosis that I was aware of, but his suicide was a reaction to five deaths in one year. He found it too overwhelming, never told anyone about it and killed himself.

I think I agree with you OP. That said I’m sure some very severe mental health issues are definitely inherited, it’s not just a case of environment. On my fathers family side there has been a suicide or severe mental illness (recently diagnosed as bipolar) every generation.

Again for my friend who was diagnosed with depression and bipolar, I would say these are totally NATURAL ways for your brain to rebel after being so horribly abused. There was nothing wrong with her - she was a beautiful, sensitive woman, but she had been terribly hurt so early in life, and this impacted her behaviour (addiction to drugs, playing up, bad relationships.) The mental illness was most likely a byproduct of horrible abuse. She got lots of help in terms of medication, but medication can't cure the trust issues, sense of betrayal and deep well of hurt and trauma she felt inside - that is harder to heal.