To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

I asked about a father CEO (I wasn't passing comment on ceos only being male)

Hmmmm re Barack Obama. Read Michelle’s new book. He left his family all the time when they were younger and he was running for President. She sacrificed everything to allow him to follow his dreams. It’s very lovely how he’s so loving and gracious, well he can afford to be. She stepped back, let her own aspirations go and his became more important. Fair enough, I think they’re amazing.

But I had a very different view of them by the time I finished it. His family sacrificed a lot.

Agree with Blaa re: the CEO... it’s a shame we even have to think in gender terms. It really shouldn’t be any different whichever parent it is.

Your point about women who choose to take extended ML, Smotheroffive... well, it’s down to each couple to agree between them. I do feel sorry for the father in cases where he would welcome the opportunity to share the leave but isn’t granted that by the mother... I wish shared leave had been around when I had my babies: I think it’s a fantastic opportunity for the baby and the dad.

Can’t imagine many babies are ebf by the last few months of extended ML - we’re talking babies of 9 months or so here! Of course many babies will still have breast feeds. I and most of my mum friends returned to work when our babies were 3 months old and most of us continued bf for a year or more.

What about a father CEO?

Good to hear that Sassy interesting, he didn't say the negatives of amount of time lost, just how great it was to all be together.

So, the CEO, male? It is gendered though, yes, sad, busts why I specifically asked, I really want to hear, not that women can be ceos I know that, but in reality what do male ceos do, where's the line of career level where fathers depart from home and family responsibilities, or is it not linear atall? Certainly, dependent upon how widespread equality views are amongst the male workforce too.

Busts ha ha! . ...but...

Your posts are very difficult to follow smother
Why does there have to be a line? A decent parent doesn't separate the two.

I don't know why there is such difficulty with this keyboard, its every frustrating this end, and sorry!

A ceiling then, if that makes more sense, what and where does it become difficult is what I'm getting at, so a male CEO, for instance. Does that work, how does it work? Does it matter whether CEO or other level of responsibility, is it gendered or is it at certain levels (line/ceiling)?

Certainly its unfeasible for many [women], and some sahm facilitate df becoming CEO by running the rest of the household and DC.

Yes, he was given the"choice" when he walked down the aisle and said "I do". A beautiful stable home and fine upstanding children don't happen by osmosis. She worked as hard in the home as he did at his outside job, except her job is 24/7 365 days a year. That's why marriage is a partnership not who makes the money makes the rules. She deserves half of everything. What kind of turd of a human being would quit his job so his children suffer and struggle with their out of work mother? What a shame.

Well I'm a SAHM with 4 kids - all at school/uni aged from 8yrs to 20.
DH goes to work but I work damn hard at home.
All of the housework, shopping, cooking, washing, school runs, family paperwork, school stuff etc etc.

Is suits us both but if we ever split up then yes I want half of everything plus child maintenance for younger 3.

smother there are whole threads on facilitated men.

However, that is choice.....who is making that choice is another story all together. Men (and women) shouldn't presume that just because they earn more that their career is more important than their partner's career. But I see this happen a lot!

If it's a choice that has been made by both partners and one person is happy to facilitate another's career then fine but the person doing the facilitating needs to be respected and compensated accordingly.

If both parties aren't happy with the situation then both parents need to take jobs that are compatible with family life. If that means not going for CEO then so be it.

We've had to make those decisions in our family.
My DH turned down a job just as I was about to return from mat leave as it would have made me returning quite difficult.
He's also been offered jobs which would mean living away during the week but again, didn't take them because they weren't compatible with family life.
He currently earns exactly double my salary but he's 11 years older so has had more time to build his career. He doesn't view his career as more important and will take dependents leave as and when required and it certainly hasn't harmed his career.

Now, we've been fortunate enough to find family friendly employers but we've actively chosen to work for them rather than others when given a choice.

So many women are prepared to sacrifice their career because the biological pull to care for one's own children is stronger than the desire to provide financially for their family. The roles are entrenched in our DNA that women will nurture the young, because physically, men can't!

Lots of women of course deny this urge, do have careers and get others to do the caring and upbringing of their children- mainly I suspect because modern society is trying to work towards equality (where women become like men- because somehow that is better- ).

So many women are prepared to sacrifice their career because the biological pull to care for one's own children is stronger than the desire to provide financially for their family. The roles are entrenched in our DNA that women will nurture the young, because physically, men can't

Oh bollocks.

Lots of women of course deny this urge, do have careers and get others to do the caring and upbringing of their children- mainly I suspect because modern society is trying to work towards equality (where women become like men- because somehow that is better

What utter tosh.

But yeah - I'd prefer my own income and financial independence - unless being fucked over is also part of losing the DNA lottery.

Sorry but that's not right fresta
Social structures play the largest part in this. Society tells us that mothers should look after their children not biology.

The initial few days after giving birth biology (specifically oxytocin) tells women to care for her young but providing the father spends enough time with the baby his levels of oxytocin rise too, often to similar levels as the mothers. However, as men frequently leave the childcare to women especially during the early stages, in some cases this oxytocin doesn't increase as much as it could/should. It's not DNA it's oxytocin - a hormone.

Once the baby arrives men are just as capable of caring for them especially if you choose not to breastfeed. There is absolutely nothing in a mans DNA that says he can't care for people and nothing to say women are better at it.

mainly I suspect because modern society is trying to work towards equality (where women become like men- because somehow that is better- hmm)

You don't understand equality. It's not about making women like men. it's about ensuring men and women have equal choices so that someone isn't disadvantaged because of their sex. In my line of work we do a lot of work to encourage more men to apply because they are underrepresented. It can work both ways it's just that women face a greater number of inequalities and they are often more severe...but that's society NOT biology.

“ modern society is trying to work towards equality (where women become like men- because somehow that is better- hmm”
You have a basic misunderstanding of the word “equality”

fresta what you are describing is becoming coined in some circles in the modern day as borderline moving into the golden uterus syndrome. Blaa has hit the nail on the head. Men just as well as women are able to do skin to skin and see their oxytocin increase. Granted, they can’t breastfeed but if you place that biological part to one side there is absolutely nothing that prevents a man from being able to care for a baby. What do you think happens in same sex couples who are men and become fathers?

Having a womb does not make anyone automatically more qualified from a DNA perspective to care for a baby. It’s that level of entitlement and view that makes some women fight child arrangements orders after separation. Because they are of the view that the only person who can care for ‘young’ children is the mother. It is nothing but an entitled view based in nothing but out dated old fashioned views.

Also, I am climbing the career ladder and some would argue I’m doing ok. I don’t act like men, I act like me. I bring cognitive, gender and a whole set of other attributes to ‘the’ table. I have not been promoted to act like a man.

Your views are hugely misinformed. And for all the women who are on these pages stating that they are happy being SAHm and their DH’s / DP’s are fully supportive? I work in a very make dominated field and yes I agree some men are very happy that wifey is sat at home and they have the freedom to work/ travel/ go out for dinners / corporate jollies without having to think twice. They tend to be the older bunch (older than me). Come to my age group and below and I would say that 50% of that group (and I’m saying that as a conservative number) feel that they have no choice. They got a call or were ‘told’ by their wife/ partner that she no longer wanted to work and they supported that. They are tired, fed up of not seeing their kids and if they had the choice, in a heartbeat they would happily share childcare if someone else was contributing in real financial terms towards the running of the house. They feel very real pressure and you know what I feel sad for them.

We also have men taking (very generous) paternity leave (as I work in a company where we offer men long periods of time off in the first few years of a babies life) and the amount of them who come back and state that the other half refused to use that time to go back to work and leave the child in their FT care is staggering. I can’t believe it.

I’m sure the women are fine. But that’s an emotional split that none of these men will forget anytime soon. You never recover from your partner effectively saying ‘I don’t think it’s in the best interests of the child to be cared for by you, they need me.’

I’d be horrified if anyone said anything like that to me.

They got a call or were ‘told’ by their wife/ partner that she no longer wanted to work and they supported that. They are tired, fed up of not seeing their kids and if they had the choice, in a heartbeat they would happily share childcare if someone else was contributing in real financial terms towards the running of the house. They feel very real pressure and you know what I feel sad for them

I completely agree. There seems to be an idea among some people that men don't want to care for their children and are happy to leave it all their wife...thankfully in my world 99% of the dads i know adore their kids and want to take an active role is raising them rather than just providing financially. Those that don't are not viewed very favourably at all.

and the amount of them who come back and state that the other half refused to use that time to go back to work and leave the child in their FT care is staggering. I can’t believe it.

Oh, I certainly can when you peruse the relationships boards and read just how many men do no life or housework or look after a child in their care beyond making sure the child is not walking into a fire. Plenty won't even get up with the baby or child when it cries, just leave it be as they 'didn't hear it' or don't bother to feed, bathe or dress the baby properly, much less interact with it.

Re male CEO’s / boards. This behaviour categorically will change in the forward looking companies who recognise the need for true diversity at the top table.
For the CEO who categorically refuses to miss certain events in their child’s life. I can think of a recent example in my own company where our CEO was being summoned to the top leadership summit by our head office and it meant missing his eldest child’s presentation which she had been working for 6 months on in front of the whole school. He did not miss that presentation and flew out one day late. The company did not break. He did not get fired. He’s not a surgeon saving lives.

His behaviour showed the whole executive team how to behave. Another leader didn’t go away to another offsite with top talent as his youngest was going through the stressful 11+ interviews and although the wife could have gone, he refused to not be present for something so critical.

I have so many examples of this. People are waking up the fact that CEo’s / exes are human. They are parents. They have families. And they can (and do) prioritise.

plump did you actually just lump a whole category of the human race into one big offensive bucket and call them borderline neglectful fathers?

Wow. Get out much and widen your perspective on the world out there do we? Another sweeping generalisation based in zero fact.

I said 'how many' and 'plenty', and not 'all', however much you would so love to twist the post to suit your agenda, it's erroneous of you to do so.

Well I can also cite many examples of hands on mothers who I used to see sat in coffee shops/ playgroups chatting to their fellow mums as their little poppets ran around causing havoc. Not intervening to tell the child to sit down as the environment is not appropriate for a toddler running around. Or not intervening when their toddler hits another child.

We can all cite examples or poor parenting from men, from women. What point are you trying to make when it comes to who can best care for a child. People can be poor parents, don’t you think?

But I had a very different view of them by the time I finished it. His family sacrificed a lot.

They also gained a heck of a lot.

I was a sahm on and off for about 3 years while my children were young (between maternity leave and periods of unemployment).

Once they turned 12 months I was desperate to get back to work. Before then I would have struggled as they were poor sleepers and I lacked organisation while they were babies.

Why? I needed the security of work, I never truely felt like I could rely on Dh and I always worried about the what ifs. What is he loses his job? What if there is high unemployment/redundancies? What if he gets sick?

I also enjoyed the money. I hate feeling restricted on a budget. Would always prefer to bring more money in than tighten the purse strings. Ironically when I was earning it actually motivated me to save more and budget better! So this was a win win!

Also I got a sense of being valued at work, even though my jobs/career were fairly ordinary.

So I don't understand why all women aren't keen to get back to work. I understand and have sympathy for those who would earn less than childcare but this situation would only happen for a couple of years so I don't understand why they wouldn't be preparing to get back to work as soon as child care costs lesson. I also understand special needs and disabilities makes working difficult/impossible. But for your average mother with average children like in the op I just do not understand how she got herself into this situation as it is so far removed from my experience so I lack sympathy for them.

I don’t see any purpose in generalisations like - “I work with man men who.....” You May work with them, but it hardly gives any insight into their personal lives really, does it. Maybe they say one thing at work and another to friends or whoever. The only person you can speak for really is yourself and your own husband.

Surveys are irrelevant really because life is what it is. For instance, I know full well that my DH did not have the same patience, confidence, pre-emptiveness, attunement to any of our DC from day one. So it doesn’t matter to me about “x study, revealing that men have x oxytocin levels of whatever.” I know my DH wouldn’t have had the patience to be a SAHD. To this day, I’ve never really left him overnight with the kids (that’s 15 years ). The men I know are mostly upper 40s now, all very successful, high-earners in the main, and I’ve never heard one even contemplate being a SAHD. I’m sure if this was what they wanted, they would make it so. Many of them don’t even need to work anymore, but they fill their time with hobbies instead. Looking at relationships from the outside and quoting studies is one thing. Real life is another.