To think that lots of men think this way

[Flynnshine]

Recently a good friend of my partners has split from his wife of 15 years, they have two young children between 10 and 13.
The husband has decided he isn't happy and wants to end the relationship.

Last week he came over to our house in the evening and I left him and my husband chatting in the living room. I wasn't eavesdropping but I was only in the next room so could hear their conversation. Basically the husband has been planning this split for a while, 6 months before he announced he wanted to end things he sold their beautiful big house and they moved into their much smaller starter home which they had out on rent - they moved the kids out of their private school education and into a state school local to their new home.

They've always had a very comfortable life, beautiful house, nice cars and very fancy holidays a few times a year. They both had good jobs when they first met but when the children came along the wife stopped work and dedicated her life to them. They've done amazingly well at school, both top of their classes, sporty and do two sports for their local borough. They are polite and thoughtful and genuinely lovely children.

The conversation I overheard was the husband complaining that even though the wife hasn't paid towards the mortgage for over 10 years she will still be entitled to half of what the house is worth - he seemed bitter and angry and said he'd been hiding money for ages so she wouldn't get anything when they divorce. He's even planning on quitting his job and becoming self employed so he can fudge his earnings so his maintenance payments could be less. My husband was agreeing with him, I don't know if just to placate him or if that's really how he feels!

This man honestly thinks that because he has been working and paying a mortgage that his worth is so much more. He thinks he has enabled her to not work for over 10 years and that she has been having a jolly all that time. It's like he gives zero shits that he has two wonderful children that he has never had to lift a finger for and she has given her all to those children while he reaps the rewards of that.

Do all men deep down think like this, even if they won't openly admit it? Is money really the be all and end all of everything!?

Personally I think marriage disincentivises women from being financially independent and that is a really bad thing. Financial contributions, childcare and household chores should be shared equally between both partners, and I don’t think anyone should walk away from a marriage with more than they put in. I do take a dim view of anyone, male or female, who becomes 100% financially reliant on their partner. But society also facilitates this by childcare being so expensive and not offering flexible working for men AND women. I would never marry purely because morally, ideologically and practically I don’t want to ever join my finances with anyone. But men who want to have kids but have no input and have their wife as a full time housekeeper are misogynists. They need to do their bit when it comes to childcare. He sounds like he fits this description. However, there are also a lot of women who seem to think work is obligatory for men but optional for women. Neither is necessarily representative of ALL men or women

I am currently getting divorced from my husband and father of my kids. I didn’t work for 7 years while they were little. He’s been entirely fair when it comes to money. Maybe he’s the exception I don’t know ...

Firstly research has shown that for both boys and girls - it's important for them to see their Mum work. For boys - because they see an equal relationship and for girls a role model - a mum who can both work and be their mother - it's not an either or choice unless for personal reasons. If it pays you financially to work, they you will make it happen and you can still raise "wonderful" children. You cannot suggest otherwise and what about parents who have to work financially - are you saying that they don't raise wonderful children or that someone else rears them? I hope not. Kids are only in childcare for a few years before starting school - there's 18 years of influencing your kids in terms of being good citizens. Also if this situation were to be reversed which it is more and more these days and your female friend after years of paying and providing felt annoyed that her husband was now going to get half and maintenance how would you feel? Would you tell her to suck it up or agree to hide stuff? I've had wealthly female friends taken to the cleaners by husbands who either didn't work or had much less paying jobs and yes it must be devastating and I can understand why someone gets upset about it. You've worked all your life for your family and now have to give up at least 50% of everything. And your friends who work 40+ hours a week and yet have to make sacrifices when their kids are sick or on holidays, have married the wrong men. I know loads of husbands & dad's - my own included - who cook, clean, look after their kids willingly, and do school runs before work and also work at home when kids are sick. For every comment you make about working parents, SAHP or Mum's making the sacrifices - I can counter argue from my experience. Depends on your friends circle doesn't it?

Not all men think like this. If your dh thinks this is ok then he needs a good talking to as this behaviour is not on and he should not be agreeing or condoning it.
Tell your friend, she needs to know this is his game plan. I'd message her rather than phone her to avoid being overheard yourself.

Three of my friends are getting divorced this year all because their husbands have had affairs and are 'no longer happy'. Fair enough. But the divorce courts make little of no acknowledgement of the FINANCIAL contribution a woman makes to the household by doing endless childcare / washing / cleaning and generally keeping everything together while her husband concentrates on 'his' career.
There should be a standard charge applied for this, ie: £9 per hour for the last 15years = ££££££££££££££
Also it makes me hopping mad that the husbands in question are stingy about the maintenance payments. As though they suddenly stop caring whether their children are fed / clothed / etc.
If we got 100, 000 petitions on this we could have a debate in the House of Commons....Shall we do it?

Well, there's another thread on this site where high-earning women are discussing why marriage isn't worth it in light of subsequent maintenance payments and 'losing half of everything'.

So, its seems it's not just men who think like this, rather it's main breadwinners, universally.

@Bobaboutwhat definitely. I don't know how people think they can get away with things like this.

OP, make sure your friend has good solicitor. If so, he won't be able to hide a penny.

we can all plot and scheme, given incentive and opportunity

Snoutandabout- I completely agree with your views about shared responsibilities. I partnered a man who was happy to do his share of child and domestic related stuff, just as I’ve always been happy to do my share of earning.

One point though- flexible working is open to men as well as women. I would be really interested to know whether there’s more research into The underlying reasons why fewer men take this up. Same with shared parental leave. It’s very easy to ‘blame’ men, but anecdotally I know several women who have said there’s no way they’ll hand over a few months of their maternity leave to enable the child’s father to take some leave.

Tbh I think a lot of men do think like this, I hear it at work all the time. But to an extent they have a point. Many men have a very good career with a wife who works, might not be to the same level as the DH (or other way round) but they are contributing financially.

Most men seem happy to support their wife with pre schoolers but most men seem to think once at school their wife can start earning again. I actually agree with them. I have a friend who works a stressful job, 13 year old ds. Wife hasn’t worked since he was born. I can’t work out what she does all day. She refuses to get a job. Most marriages I know like thisend in divorce.

What he’s doing is no worse than women who want to leave setting up secret bank accounts to hide money. Both partners in this situation have abdicated certain responsibilities to their detriment imo

Are you kidding me? Do you realise how much effort is going into changing traditional roles of women in society? Getting girls to see they can make senior leadership in the various walks of life - do you know how women are outnumbered versus men across the board in banking, law, research, politics - I could go on! And you want to blame the under valuing of traditional women's roles as a cause of the social crisis?? Wake up - it's 2019 - why is no one blaming men's lack of traditional roles for this? And if we don't change that view the next generation of women will suffer the consequences. Yes I get it every SAHM wants a pat on the back for all she does and to be valued - but that's down to her husband and family - society doesn't need to start thanking her - many SAHM's are crap and do nothing to help raise the next generation to have morals and values and be "wonderful" children like the OP has said (and I know I'll be shot down for that but it's true) - and in my time on Mat leave all they did on their "coffee mornings" was moan about how much they had on their plates and how they wished their husband could earn more...... I always told such women - go earn it yourself! If we don't also value women outside the home we're never going to set standards for young girls to look to attain. Go get your career and yes it is possible to still have a family...... may not always be perfect but neither is being a SAHM and it can actually be just as rewarding.

What a big fat CF! Is there no way you could give her a heads up despite her not being your close friend...maybe send her an anonymous letter to let her know what’s about to happen? I feel so sorry for the poor woman and her children. BTW my husband completely agrees the the man is a T**T!!

@etcher70 divorce courts absolutely do take this into account (not at an hourly rate, but as a valuable contribution to the household). Your friends need better solicitors if this isn't being acknowledged.

No offence - but I work with incredibly successful men whose wives also work and are just as successful in their careers. All down to the couple and how they manage it and having a successful wife and kids doesn't preclude you climbing up the corporate ladder. I work and have also given my husband beautiful boys - though I dislike your use of the word "given" - they aren't a gift - he's their dad and we work at it as a team - so he's also "given" me beautiful boys - that's as much his job as mine. It's not my responsibility to give him beautiful children - it's OUR responsibility to raise OUR children to be good citizens for society in the future. Yeah I contribute financially- I also help to keep OUR home and cook OUR meals as he does for me! God some of the posts on here - it's like I've stepped back 100 years!!

A lot of men do. And a lot of second partners deeply resent any money going to the “first” family. You only have to read many posts on here

This! Plenty won't marry at all for this reason and this board is laden with women who gave up work to look after kids she had with 'DP' and are totally screwed financially when they split up. They get a big shock when they find out it's UC and dodgy B&Bs for years for them because there's no legal recognition for them.

Most men seem happy to support their wife with pre schoolers but most men seem to think once at school their wife can start earning again. I actually agree with them.

Yes, but so many of them still believe that the wife should 'contribute' financially but still do all the housework, life work, sort the childcare, sacrifice her annual leave when the kids are ill and basically service him and put in money, too. They don't want to divide up the lifework and parenting. Fuck that.

I think that some men and some women think like that.
I feel that some men and some women are selfish and unreasonable and unwilling to share 50:50 or to put the children first and not use as a weapon.
I really don't think it is to do with the gender but to do with the morals and reasonableness of an individual.

divorce courts make little of no acknowledgement of the FINANCIAL contribution a woman makes to the household by doing endless childcare / washing / cleaning and generally keeping everything together while her husband concentrates on 'his' career

Seems fair. They aren't doing anything different than most adults do. Parenting is what you do when you have a child and cooking, cleaning etc isn't hard. Most working parents don't have chefs or cleaners and manage just fine.

I doubt the man is concentrating on his career because there is someone at home more like he has to work as he is responsible for everything. After all, who would want to be married to an adult who couldn't function at work without another adult.

It's good for children to see both parents work so that they don't think their options are set for them. Both get the same education and both should use it.

I work in a male dominated field. Unfortunately there are quite a few men who resent their wives being SAHM. I’ve heard the ‘banter’ and they feel they can say stuff in front of me as I work FT.

It’s as though they are torn between wanting to be seen as wealthy/have status of being able to afford a ‘traditional’ life.

Some of them appear to have agreed to it when the kids were babies but resent it when kids become school aged.

Your DHs friend sounds quite nasty and calculating.

Well, it happened to me. Didn’t think my ex husband thought like this ( we had always shared everything) but when we split he cleared the bank accounts (without a thought for our three children). He said tax credits should cover us (please note he was on a six figure salary at the time). Eventually, he left his job. Bought a house for 750k cash. And now it’s 33p per month for each child in maintenance as he has ‘no income’.
On the plus side, I’m now remarried, I re trained for a new career and I can officially say screw you to him...it’s taken nearly ten years but we don’t needn’t him 😀

I meant to say torn between status of traditional life and reality of modern life being expensive. Often you need two salaries, especially in the SE.

Some men are like this, but they are shits.
Your dh agreed so he's obviously the same.
When they find a new partner chances are that she doesn't want to pay for the first family, nor her partner.
So many kids are harmed emotionally when parents split up, shitty thing to do to your kids lives, unless it's totally unavoidable.
There are shit parents everywhere, not just men.

user1490465531

Absolutely.
Fair is fair.
So he can have full time care of the kids for the next 6 years so she can get a degree and get on the career ladder, or whatever equal amounts of time she supported him in climbing his career. And he can also go home , clean it and prepare her a meal for when she gets in (Or whatever equivalent). Then they can call it a day!!

AnnoyedinJanuary, I too would prefer an equal split at home and be absolutely DELIGHTED to be back WOH. It’s easier, financially rewarded, more social, you develop your professional skills etc. However, I don’t actually know that many men in RL who are s£&t hot housekeepers, homemakers and carers. Indeed, the vast majority of them are various degrees of incompetent in those areas. Maybe a younger generation is a bit better, but mine, I.e 40-somethings, men are not great at running a house and family. I am told older demographics are even worse.

So a woman who WOH FT will end up doing it all, at work and at home, rather than getting her DH doing a genuine 50% share. Some men are better than others, but I am yet to meet one who would be a match for his W in the home domain. I saw guys on telly and I read about them on Mumsnet, I haven’t met one yet though. If I did have such a man who I could rely on to do genuine 50%, including mental load, I wouldn’t think twice about not working. WOH is lovely!

With hindsight his discouraging her from going back to work, most likely for selfish reasons, should have been a red flag. Thinking of himself only and not her.