AIBU to think that mainstream veganism will ultimately end up like this?

[EerieSilence]

I know it's Daily Fail but hey, they did the investigation and the research on contents so why not?
So, here goes the vegan sausage for everybody. Fermented fungus, shitloads of salt and palm oil.
It's my personal belief that in countries with cold seasons and limited availability of fresh vegetables and fruits we should be trying to eat more local than vegan because if you want to do it cheap, this is how you end up. Organic vegan diet is a first world luxury for now.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6583469/The-unpalatable-truth-right-vegan-sausage-roll.html

Agreed. I can't see how palm oil can be vegan. I mean, technically it is, because it's from a plant. But it's so ecologically destructive, you might as well be eating orang-utans rendered into lard.

It's far better to eat locally produced food from sustainable, integrated farming systems that use manure from the animals to fertilise the soil to grow vegetables, than it is to eat stuff grown half way around the world, requires tons of artificial (read: fossil fuel based) fertiliser and which degrade the soils and forests/eco-systems that were once there. Veganism is a one dimensional philosophy. It doesn't take into account the inputs and trophic flows of a functioning food system. Life is a circular system, not linear. It is impossible to have a farming system without, either animals, or humongous amounts of fossil fuel inputs.

@DoodleLab - yep, that's exactly my point.
Nuts - you get the vegans getting all sanctimonious about how their nut roast is so much eco-friendlier and nobody suffered for it. It's because they don't give a damn about the human cost because who cares about an Indian woman somewhere far far away who has her hands permanently damaged if they can walk around supermarkets and restaurants, waving pictures of local cows being slaughtered with their bellies full?
The thing is - they can afford improving the conditions of the workers now, on a smaller scope. But once it becomes mainstream, major companies will simply create a two or even three tier food production: the cheapest one for the masses and then maybe two lines for those who can afford all the fair trade, organic, happy workers shelling nuts in a comfortable environment, with gloves and medical treatment available but this will double or triple the cost.

It all depends on your motivation doesn't it.

Fermented fungus, shitloads of salt and palm oil

Let's break that down.

Fermented fungus- why do you have a problem with this? Are you equally against kimchi? Do you not like people eating mushrooms either?

Shitloads of salt - maybe, but do you police the sodium intake of meat eaters too? I prefer not to eat lots of salt, but maybe once in a while I'll indulge in a salt laden product. Why does it bother you?

Palm oil - by the vegan society definition is vegan, however many vegans strive to reduce their consumption of palm oil though it also produces between 4 to 10 x the yield of other plant oils. People are upset about palm oil because they empathise with orangutans more readily than other, less anthopomorphised, animals that would have their habitat reduced by needing larger amounts of land than palm oil plantations. Properly sustainable is a much better option than some other plant oils.

If you are an environmentally motivated vegan you probably take special care to eat local, seasonal and organic.

Personally, I do see the environmental argument for locavorism, but I often see this argument being used against veganism as some kind of trump card by people who advocate eating local, seasonal and organic, but don't always act on it.

The vegans I know and some of the vegetarians follow (as much as the can be informed) an ethical way of eating. They would probably not touch a Greg’s sausage roll. I know that my family vegan member cooks from scratch and as locally sourced as possible. There does seem a disconnect between being a vegan and following a non meat derived diet. They should not be the same and in over promoting veganism the message does not only get lost but also can do the damage that ethical eating was trying to avoid in the first place.

veganism as an ethical choice rather than a self serving one made sense to me

getting vegan sausage rolls from a baker that makes 90% of it's money from animal products is not an ethical choice, it's a convenient one. Veganism and convenience have never really gone hand in hand until now.

Vegan McDonald's ffs

getting vegan sausage rolls from a baker that makes 90% of it's money from animal products is not an ethical choice, it's a convenient one

It’s almost impossible to buy everything you need from entirely vegan shops. If people as buying vegan sausage rolls, they’re not buying a meat one. Everyone eating less meat is better for the planet.

Fungus is one of the most ecologically sound things you can eat. It's so sustainable that fungal farms are actually part of Nasa's long-term plan to produce food on Mars. (I know it's controversial as many people believe we will never have a Martian colony, but I'm simply making the point that our world's leading scientists think fungus is the best way to sustainably nourish people in the most hostile environment we have ever imagined humans existing)

So I don't see what the issue is with people eating that? They literally couldn't eat anything better for the environment. In terms of taste... That's a different issue lol.

@kimikoglenn - I really would like to stress that I am talking about vegans going mainstream which is the desired future.
Neither you nor anyone else talked about the future when most people are supposed to become vegan. How do you make it ethical? Not everybody will be able to afford " ethical", "organic" etc.

I wish people would just get over this bloody vegan sausage roll.

As a vegan, it does not appeal to me as I do not eat junk food but if I did surely it would not be for every meal of the day. Let people buy what they want, Greggs have never be associated with healthy low-fat palm free food before so why should their vegan sausage roll be any different.

It's food on the go, it's not balanced refined cuisine.

I think that the people who tell vegans off for eating items containing palm oil are very rarely free from it themselves. I'd also prefer a less processed diet overall, for everyone, with fewer imports.

Having said all that, I do occasionally eat the bad things. I really shouldn't but here we are.

EerieSilence

How do you make anything ethical? By identifting a standard to which something needs to be held (you've mentioned workers rights) and enforcing it either as a consumer by creating demand and spending wisely or by lobbying for change.

Yes, privilieged people will be able to afford more ethical products but thats no different to today. Conflating veganism with ethical consumerism won't solve the problems you've outlined.

Many vegans are concerned with being ethical consumers, but some aren't and why should they be automatically expected to because they are vegan? Why are vegans held to this standard but meat eaters, and even vegetarians, aren't?

LOL!! What like mainstream burger eating compared to premium locally sourced beef. That's quite a high horse you have there...

@kimikoglenn - my understanding of vegan movement was, that it's THE ethical choice.
They run around the supermarkets, abuse people buying meat or eating meat in restaurants, screaming in your face that you are a murderer killing animals and should go vegan. The ads with the sad hens laying eggs so we can fill our stomachs with exploitation of animals.
My question is then: people will still want to eat, even if majority goes vegan. They will want fast food. They will want to eat cheap, because even if you are vegan, you need to watch your budget.
Hence me asking and taking the example of the Greggs vegan sausage roll - how will a family that's maybe one month salary or benefit away from a food bank be able the ethical principles that vegans are pushing down our throats right now? Will they look at the "fair trade" or "organic" or whatever signs on the packaging? Or will they simply take whatever they can afford, even if it contains palm oil (and won't care if it's sustainable or not) or similar ingredients which impacted lives of people in not so privileged countries where it was sourced?
How do the vegans see it? Because talking about the high horse, mine is barely a pony compared to the vegan Shire gelding.

I'm sure if you are fashion vegan the whole ethical thing wouldn't bother you so much.
If you are health vegan, you probably wouldn't be eating Greggs sausage rolls
If you are a lifestyle vegan you probably look into sustainability side too.

*@EerieSilence*Can I just point out that the majority of vegans are just normal people living normal lives who do not go around supermarkets as you describe.

my understanding of vegan movement was, that it's THE ethical choice.
They run around the supermarkets, abuse people buying meat or eating meat in restaurants, screaming in your face that you are a murderer killing animals and should go vegan.

What a load of utter rubbish.

It's far better to eat locally produced food from sustainable, integrated farming systems that use manure from the animals to fertilise the soil to grow vegetables, than it is to eat stuff grown half way around the world, requires tons of artificial (read: fossil fuel based) fertiliser and which degrade the soils and forests/eco-systems that were once there. Veganism is a one dimensional philosophy. It doesn't take into account the inputs and trophic flows of a functioning food system. Life is a circular system, not linear. It is impossible to have a farming system without, either animals, or humongous amounts of fossil fuel inputs. Well said.
Also no one really cares about the impact on poorly paid agricultural workers and their environment in faraway countries. Out of sight out of mind.
I was really impressed by a feature about battery hens on the Jamie Oliver programme last night. People are unaware about the use of battery cage eggs in manufactured cakes and pastas etc. Some major companies such as McDonald's only use free range eggs.

They run around the supermarkets, abuse people buying meat or eating meat in restaurants, screaming in your face that you are a murderer killing animals and should go vegan

Is this something you've experienced in real life or have been told happens? I live in a place with a very large vegan community. None of us do this. I think it is worth you knowing that a large amount of us do not think this is the way forward and our activism takes very different forms. The media like to portray extreme minorities as the norm because it benefits them, but at its core veganism is about compassion and you don't win support for animal rights by acting in the way you've said.

When vegans talk about being ethical vegans, we mean that in terms of animal rights. We are motivated to be vegan for the animals. Not ethical in terms of, we can solve all of the world's ills by being vegan.

I'm really confused about your point to be honest. Are you angry about the fact that people in low income families have to take what they can get? Because I'm angry about that too, Im angry that successively inefficient governments are putting more and more people into poverty but I don't really understand how it is linked to veganism.

This problem exists now. There are people who would like to eat more ethically now. There are people who would like to eat organic now. But they can't because of financial circumstances.

I don't see how this issue is particular to a mainstream vegan future, or how that future would exacerbate the problem.

I have experienced vegans abusing people outside butchers shops etc. But I wouldn't imagine it is very common. Pretty unusual I'd guess.

Come on, what the hell does a novelty sausage roll have to do with mainstream veganism?

Your opinion of vegans is so ill-informed, hysterical and inaccurate that I can’t help but think you must be a troll.

I think you’re bashing vegans to make yourself feel better about your own food choices. There’s no need. Any diet can be ethical or unethical. You can concentrate on your own without posting untrue bullshit about vegans online.

And since they weren't actually threatening to harm anyone (although they were taking photos of us murderers and posting them online) they were easy enough to ignore.

If someone wants to be a vegan that's their business. I can't criticise someone for being the wrong type of vegan, their ethics are up to them.

It’s not ethical vegans eating all the latest fancy “plant based diet” convenience food, it’s the part-timers.
The “plant based trend” it a great marketing ploy for lots of businesses so they are all jumping on the bandwagon. It sells.
I will probably try a vegan sausage roll, I will definitely continue to not eat ice cream flavoured vanilla with beaver bum gland, drinks clarified with fish bladder or sweets made of ground up pig bones. HTH.

The vegans that i know dont eat products with palm oil in them as it contributes to deforestation...

Palm oil is in Soya milk.

Just eat more vegan

Palm oil is in Soya milk.

Not in any I drink!!