AIBU to wonder why so many have issues with trans

[Blue09]

Before I start I want to make it clear I’m not trans. I’m asking this as every time I’m on mumsnet there seems to be a post against trans people, more male to female bashing than anything else.

AIBU in asking what the problem is?

I usually consider myself to be an open minded person and I genuinely don’t care what other people choose to do so long as it’s legal but it does make me wonder how many people have actually been born in the wrong body. And a lot of folk on here seem to get very upset about it. Would you mind explaining why it bothers you so much?

Because the rights of transgender women are being put before the rights of biological women.

I don’t have a problem with anyone until they start intruding into my life. The redefinition of what constitutes being a woman is an intrusion. That the redefinition is by men - intrusion! The redefinition is for the benefit of men - intrusion! Women who go along with this, thinking themselves cool or caring, are fools hoodwinked into welcoming a hideous oppression. Men now get to say who is or is not a woman. Identifying as an actual woman (no Y chromosome, no penis) is said to be ‘transphobic’. Bollocks. Men aren’t just encroaching on wom

... end spaces, they’re encroaching on women’s minds.

Because what is the point of the NHS having single sex wards (to preserve rights and dignity of women) if a man who hasn't even started any formal transitioning can self-id as a woman and be placed in a female ward? (News today following FOI requests).

I don't care what people wear. People shouldn't be discriminated against in regular jobs (ie not those jobs where single sex exemptions exist). But single sex areas should not be open to 'self-id'. And confused teenagers shouldn't be told they are trans just because they don't follow gender stereotypes.

Women’s

And to heck with the phone that posts whenever it likes.

I do not have a problem with trans people. If your gender dysphoria is making your life unbearable and the only way to relieve that is to transition, then do what you must. You can’t change sex, all you can try to do is resemble the opposite sex more closely. Most transsexuals get that.

I have an enormous problem with TRAs and self ID. Putting on a wig and calling yourself Mandy does not make you a woman and does not entitle you to enter womens’ spaces. It should not entitle you to appropriate women’s sporting achievements and other awards.

As for the way this is being presented - promoted even - to children and teens - there’s going to be a huge backlash about all these lives ruined by puberty blockers and other physical treatments for what is essentially a problem of the mind.

Well this didn't go the way OP was expecting, did it.

Why waste your breath? Goady thread started by someone who has made the active choice not to actually read any of the threads already explaining the issues. We have too much else to do, just ignore this shite.

"No people have been born in the wrong body. It isn't possible. The problem is with their mind, not with their bodies. There are a whole host of disorders where the mind rejects the body or part of their body for one reason or another. This is just one of them"

TheBhagwan Not being goady honestly but... how can you be so sure?

Replace the above with other conditions where people sincerely believe they are something they are not.

Do we tell anorexic people that yes they really are fat?
Do we tell able bodied people that we agree they are disabled?
Do we tell Rachel Dolezal that, sure, you're a black woman.
Do we let Emile Ratelband transform into a 49 when he is 69?
Do we let Ian Huntley become Nicola * Huntley and move to a women's prison?
Do we let Karen White back into the women's prison to rape more inmates?

( * Nicola being the name of Holly Wells mum, btw)

Children shouldn't be encouraged to make irreversible decisions
You wouldn’t let a child get a tattoo so how can it be right to let them change their body irreversibly in other ways.
No problem with adults transitioning at all but giving children puberty blockers is wrong.

Everybody should be able to express themselves as they wish without fear of discrimination.

The problem is the redefinition of 'woman' to minimise the physical differences that do make am unavoidable difference - periods, pregnancy, menopause, size and shape - and to emphasise gender stereotypes.

If you want to understand why this is a problem remember that despite last year's celebrations, we still have to wait another 9 years for the centenary of women being able to vote on equal terms with men, and that it was 1974 before clinics were allowed to prescribe the pill to single women. Look at what is happening around the world now - look at the countries where women had rights and then they were taken away. Look at what might happen in America.

To protect women you need to be able to explain who they are. I might not have much in common with Nadine Dorries and certainly don't think we are in a special 'womanhood club', but I can explain why we are both female and how this would impact on our lives. On the other hand I no more want to be grouped according to my 'gender identity' than I want to be categorised according to my star sign.

Yabu.

All the reasons have been written about and discussed coherently and in a non-biased manner on Mumsnet for years.

The "problems" have been set out countless, numerous times. And, so long as you can skim past the reams of merailing and derailing that goes on in discussions about the GRA, you will find the answer to your question just by spending a few hours reading a handful of Mumsnet feminism threads.

So a very big yabu to you I'm afraid.

OP seems to have lit fuse and left the scene.

@Newsername
I didn't say all muslim countries have these issues anywhere in my post. What the hell are you on about?

Keep your pretend outrage at words which weren't written in your head

No people have been born in the wrong body. It isn't possible.

What is the wrong body anyway?

One that is too short? one that has Cystic Fibrosis? One that keeps having miscarriages?

We are all stuck with the physical bodies we have, including our brains which are part of our bodies.

Yes, it is absolutely true that it is very difficult to be gender non-conforming and that is awful. However, the way to solve the problem isn't to push everyone even further into a gender box and to pretend that biological sex and sexual reproduction don't exist.

I am not at all "sporty", but what makes my blood boil, is allowing trans females to compete in women's sports.

It's so fucking unfair, because even if a man has transitioned as much as possible to be a woman, his height/muscle mass/reach etc is not diminished, and in no way can a woman compete against this.

Men who cannot get anywhere in men's categories, are beating real women in women's categories. Imagine being a female and training your whole life in your chosen sport, and rising to the top of your game, only to be knocked off the top spot by 6 ft 4 Barbara, born male.

It will be the end of women's sports.

Thanks for all the replies. I’m not sure why some people feel the need to be so rude on mumsnet though! It’s a forum - people ask questions in the hope of a discussion. I haven’t come to say anyone’s views are wrong for the record. I also haven’t sat up all night waiting for replies!

So to be clear, most people seem to take issue with men claiming they are women, wanting the same rights as women and shared spaces? Can’t say I disagree.

What about those that genuinely feel they are the opposite sex and go through the full gender reassignment surgery? Should they still not be allowed to use the same loos? I’m not saying they should be able to say they’ve experienced what women experience but what’s the problem if they want to use female toilet? Some places have unisex (few and far between granted) so obviously it can happen without issue?

I agree about children - it’s something I’ve argued about personally and professionally. How can they really know they’re a different gender when it could be sexuality etc? If they’ve been sexually abused and feel shame about their bodies that is wrongly placed in to being the wrong gender etc.

Thanks for the links to other threads I will read them when I get a bit more time. To the person that asked if I’d been in a cave for 3 years - having very young children does tend to do that to you doesn’t it?

It should really not be that awful to be 'gender non conforming'.

Women have been non conforming for decades, wearing trousers, cutting their hair, riding bicycles and getting paid jobs. There are no real boundaries to stop men doing likewise.

However instead of 'being a woman does not mean I want to wear makeup and wear pink clothes' has been turned on its head and is now 'because I want to wear makeup and pink clothes, I am a woman.'

What about those that genuinely feel they are the opposite sex and go through the full gender reassignment surgery? Should they still not be allowed to use the same loos?

IF only TW who had a GRC were allowed to use women's facilities and IF a TW had to have full surgery including removal of penis and testicles before getting a GRC I would probably say that was acceptable.
However, since nobody is required to prove transition before accessing female spaces, and since all that is required to be protected as trans is an 'intention' to transition, there is NO possible way to say yes to the 'genuine transitioners' and no to the men in dresses.
Sort that out and we can have a conversation about TW using women's spaces. Until that happens it's a no to all of them as far as I'm concerned

@notaman
I hadn’t considered that to be honest! Good point.

What about those that genuinely feel they are the opposite sex and go through the full gender reassignment surgery? Should they still not be allowed to use the same loos?
So we are in the loo and a man walks in.
How do I tell the difference between a trans person with a GRC and a man, and how do I safely challenge a man without a GRC and get him removed?

Women have been saying for years that the only fair solution is a third, mixed sex space. Why isn't the trans movement asking for that?

Er, aren’t ALL women, however they choose to identify, entitled to the same rights as biological men?

No, hence when they brought in the GRA, they restricted the rights of women to inherit though primogeniture. Because they know women are not men. And only men have that right.

How could you ever think that you are a woman trapped in a man's body, if you have never been a woman? You don't know what it is like to be a woman/ how we think/ how we're treated..... they just want to look like women and act how they think women should act. They don't actually know what being a woman is....

It is important to question why we have spaces and rights segregated by sex.

Why do we have toilets that are segregated by sex? Because men do film women in toilets, men do sexually assault women in toilets and me do flash their genitalia at women as a display of sexual dominance and aggression.

If we allow people of both sexes to enter women's toilets, it makes it easier for men to do this. A woman in a toilet is more vulnerable to assault as she is behind a closed door and semi-undressed, therefore more vulnerable to assault.

Is there a gender-neutral solution which protects everyone? Possibly, by having all toilets as floor to ceiling cubicles with hand basins in them and doing away with open access urinals, as well as the toilet doors being open to public areas preventing 'things going on behind closed doors' like bullying and assault, this could reduce the risk to women of assault and sexual bullying. However, allowing natal males into female toilets is not a satisfactory solution.