To not pay this bill?

[whydobirds]

I'll try to keep this intelligible...

Dc attends wraparound care at school (not run by the school). It is invoiced for via paper invoices.

Except...I never get invoices. On occasion they will give one to dc, but it is usually wrong and needs correcting. On occasion they will put them in the register- they don't always get given out. Sometimes dc gets an invoice but loses it, or (and i only found this out tonight) sometimes they tuck them in an unused pocket in dcs bag so dc doesn't know they are there. Dc has ASD.

Dc mentioned to me in Christmas holidays thst there had been an invoice for 40 quid that they hadn't passed over to me. So I paid 40 quid.

Fast forward to Monday and the childcare had been through all their payments and realised i owed another 36. So i got an invoice for the 36 plus a late payment fee. Of 25 quid.

Their argument is I should have kept track of the childcare I had used, so I should have paid even if I didnt see invoices

Mine is that that isn't how business works, you pay when you get a bill or it just messes everyones accounting up, and last half term I spent a fair bit of time out of it on valium due to a severe injury to my back, so wasn't able to keep track of much - dcs dad, xh, was taking them in, but childcare still falls to me to pay.

I have tried to speak to them and explain that I didn't know I owed it as hadn't had the invoice so feel the late fee is unfair. They don't care, and the manager was really rude and aggressive to me. They have told me I lied about not receiving the invoices and that I lie about being in the playground every day to drop dc off. They've said they can't be expected to remember to ensure I get invoices brought to the door (when they hand everyone else's out), yet I am supposed to remember exactly what I have used. They told me they didn't give me the last invoice because dc told them i was skint (i wasn't and hadnt asked dc to say this), and that they don't want to invoice every week because it is a small amount, but then I am told I am lying when I say I had no knowledge of the invoice and I am told that they invoice me religiously every week (despite another member of their staff telling me they don't). I tried to explain that trying to keep track of things while on tranquilizers is impossible - they said they didn't care. I am told that I cannot rely on my child to twll me what I owe, yet they relied on my child telling them I was broke, and they rely on my child to deliver invoices.

On one occasion I received an invoice (one of the few I have had) via the teacher 3 days after the due date - I had to pretty much beg them to remove the late fee then, now they ate saying that that was a gesture of goodwill and they didn't have to do that.

If I refuse to pay the fine, they won't accept dc at the door, even though all childcare payments are now up to date. Dcs dad and I both start work well before school.
Feel like they've got me over a barrel. AIBU in thinking it's really not fair of them to do this, and that even if they believe I owe them the money, talking to me like a delinquent kid isn't on...and if IANBU, wtaf can I do other than acquiesce to someone who is fundamentally being a bully?

I think you have to pay it. But i would be sending a pretty pissed off email tbh saying you don't appreciate the bullying & in future you want invoices via email. If they aren't willing to hand invoices to you then they cannot guarantee you have received them

You must’ve known you hadn’t paid anything for aaages- even if you didn’t know the exact amount you owed.

It’s a harsh charge- but you haven’t got much of a defence if you just ignored the issue.

Is there no other way you can tell how much you owe?

But it is your job to keep track, all the rest of your post doesn't matter.

If you're using the service then you'll know you have to pay for it, not when they chase you for it. You don't need an invoice if you just pay it regularly.

I run an ASC. You don't give the invoices to kids ffs, it's a ridiculous delivery system. Totally unprofessional.

And I say that as someone who spends their time despairing of the myriad ways clients try to avoid paying - but we invoice monthly, at least 2 weeks before payment is due, by email, with a fully broken down invoice listing every session being billed. Then send a reminder two days before due for those not yet paid, by email. The on the day text reminders.

-course nobody reads them but that's a different issue-

Your club is taking the piss, imo

I think you need to pay it this time.
I don’t really understand how it’s so hard to keep track off, you know what hours your dc are there. Can you not ensure you get the invoice each week and pay it straight away?
We pay every Friday and know what to pay. We keep track of hours and then get a receipt on payment.

I would ask for invoice by email, text, mail rather than the current system. Does your h have access to money/online banking so he can pay on your behalf in emergencies? Can you pay weekly instead?

I have lots of sympathy for the inefficient method of invoice delivery but I think that you paid late so should pay the fine. They let you off once which was reasonable.

I feel for you actually, and I agree they need to ensure an invoice is delivered before they should enforce or do late charges.
From what you've said they sound unprofessional.
Do you have a contract that sets out late charges? If not I don't see they've got a leg to stand on. To exclude your DC over something they're not entitled to is not on.
I wonder if you could report to anyone. However if it's not sub standard care, maybe not.

You know the cost of the childcare presumably so ensure that you communicate with them and pay for it in advance or on time . Do not wait for an invoice. You are being unreasonable.

You use the service, you have to pay. Just like everyone else. It's not good enough to say you never got the invoice, when you know if you don't pick up from the door, they will put it in child's bag or pocket. You need to step up. You know how often he goes and how much it should cost. You have put yourself in this position, and to try and use the excuse of being on tranquilizers.....that's poor.

They need to issue invoices professionally, not use children as the messagers.

Ask them what other channel you can receive them by - post, email, online account dashboard, fuck even a crappy text would work better.

Explain children are not a reliable acceptable method to relay bills and yes I'd rope in the school if needed - they might not be the service provider but presumably they are the ones who chose the supplier? Get them to mediate if an alternative invoice option isn't forthcoming - you can't be the only parent using this stupidity setup unwillingly. They should consider it as part of the yearly/otherwise contract. If they aren't, ask whoever appoints suppliers at the school to consider it as part of their requirements!

Time to get into 2019...

What is hard to keep track of is some cash payments, some bank transfer payments and tbh I work 14 hour days on top of school runs so can barely keep track of what I last ate. Plus last issued invoice which dc told me about was for 40 quid not 76. I didn't think to sit there and add it up. Had been making ad hoc payments for a while.
They have flat refused to email invoices and only ever put an amount on them when they do issue so I never know which weeks are being billed and which aren't...

They should be giving you a breakdown of the costs. They sound shockingly unprofessional

That invoicing system sounds terrible. Our out of school care do monthly invoices, you need to sign and date a sheet when you collect the invoice (when collecting your child). You then have 7 days to pay.

We can also opt to be emailed the invoice instead. Could you ask for your invoice via email?

They sound ridiculously unprofessional. Do their invoices say what dates/period they cover, and do they come out with a regular frequency?

YANBU but they've got you over a barrel if you want to keep using them.

@tabbymumz but I had been paying...the whole bill was nearly 300 quid and I had paid all but 36...and when they did invoice me in the last week it was for less than they wanted me to pay. It didn't occur to me that that would be the case sp paid what was asked for.

You need to ask for an itemised invoice to be issued monthly. This is a bad way to run a business.

Or can you just transfer money for each session every time you use the club. A pain I know but at least you can keep track of what you have paid for.

@Statisticallychallenged no just an amount. Funnily enough recent ofsted says needs improvement because paperwork is crap

How can they run a professional company like this?

Surely accurate, timely, transparent billing is a basic business fundamental?!

Have you asked in writing to the management?

I'd still escalate to the school so that they've had warning if the shambles..

Their invoicing/billing system sounds awful but also you have to take a fair share of the blame. It doesn't sound as if you keep any records of child care but expect them to.
Going forward, keep a record yourself and then you will know the exact amount to pay and when.

They're twats then

We occasionally get frustrated if a client says they didn't get an invoice (it's invariably in their junk mail) but our payments are due by the same date each month, invoices come out at the same time each month, and this info is on the contracts. So clients know that a payment is due. I would never expect (or trust!) our clients to work out their own bills tbh.

It’s ridiculous of them to suggest that it’s your responsibility to keep track of and make all payments without it being initiated by them. Unless their T&Cs state that. It sounds like a very unprofessional setup.

Unless it says it their T&Cs (if they have any) that you are responsible for working out how much you owe them and paying it whether they ask for it or not then they are totally out of order demanding a late payment fee.

And I can't think of any other business situation where you're expected to pay what you think you owe them without them issuing an invoice first. As others have said, massively unprofessional and unreasonable.

I just always thought it was whoever supplied goods or services who had the job of keeping track of money owed, not the customer...