To not pay this bill?

[whydobirds]

I'll try to keep this intelligible...

Dc attends wraparound care at school (not run by the school). It is invoiced for via paper invoices.

Except...I never get invoices. On occasion they will give one to dc, but it is usually wrong and needs correcting. On occasion they will put them in the register- they don't always get given out. Sometimes dc gets an invoice but loses it, or (and i only found this out tonight) sometimes they tuck them in an unused pocket in dcs bag so dc doesn't know they are there. Dc has ASD.

Dc mentioned to me in Christmas holidays thst there had been an invoice for 40 quid that they hadn't passed over to me. So I paid 40 quid.

Fast forward to Monday and the childcare had been through all their payments and realised i owed another 36. So i got an invoice for the 36 plus a late payment fee. Of 25 quid.

Their argument is I should have kept track of the childcare I had used, so I should have paid even if I didnt see invoices

Mine is that that isn't how business works, you pay when you get a bill or it just messes everyones accounting up, and last half term I spent a fair bit of time out of it on valium due to a severe injury to my back, so wasn't able to keep track of much - dcs dad, xh, was taking them in, but childcare still falls to me to pay.

I have tried to speak to them and explain that I didn't know I owed it as hadn't had the invoice so feel the late fee is unfair. They don't care, and the manager was really rude and aggressive to me. They have told me I lied about not receiving the invoices and that I lie about being in the playground every day to drop dc off. They've said they can't be expected to remember to ensure I get invoices brought to the door (when they hand everyone else's out), yet I am supposed to remember exactly what I have used. They told me they didn't give me the last invoice because dc told them i was skint (i wasn't and hadnt asked dc to say this), and that they don't want to invoice every week because it is a small amount, but then I am told I am lying when I say I had no knowledge of the invoice and I am told that they invoice me religiously every week (despite another member of their staff telling me they don't). I tried to explain that trying to keep track of things while on tranquilizers is impossible - they said they didn't care. I am told that I cannot rely on my child to twll me what I owe, yet they relied on my child telling them I was broke, and they rely on my child to deliver invoices.

On one occasion I received an invoice (one of the few I have had) via the teacher 3 days after the due date - I had to pretty much beg them to remove the late fee then, now they ate saying that that was a gesture of goodwill and they didn't have to do that.

If I refuse to pay the fine, they won't accept dc at the door, even though all childcare payments are now up to date. Dcs dad and I both start work well before school.
Feel like they've got me over a barrel. AIBU in thinking it's really not fair of them to do this, and that even if they believe I owe them the money, talking to me like a delinquent kid isn't on...and if IANBU, wtaf can I do other than acquiesce to someone who is fundamentally being a bully?

I would find another childcare provider.

@statisticallychallenged correct, they issued an invoice for 40 quid at the end of term, but apparently I owed 76. I paid the 40 as I thought that was my balance for the term idk why they didn't just invoice for the 76 and the only answer I have had from them is thst I should have kept track. Oh and thst I could have bothered to go in and ask them what I owed (I couldn't, I have another dc to drop to a different school en route to work and I don't finish work til late...although I pick dc up from school I do so on what is officially my lunch break so can't pop in then either. I tried to explain this to them and just got shouted at for 'thinking I am so special, what did I do that makes me different from anyone else, they're there til 6.15, you just cant be bothered '...er no I am still at work at 6.15 and way past 6.15, and I can't risk getting stuck in traffic on my way in or on my break as I really can't be late back...)

@cstaff apparently most of the parents got late fees added as 'it was ridiculous how much we were owed and you're all taking the mickey' so I doubt it is just me...but xh is taking in tomorrow so I can't check.

What is even more galling is the woman who is supposed to issue the invoices had to hand dc back to xh in the last week of term as dc had a full on not breathing panic attack and ended up going home. She spoke to me on the phone as she didn't know who dcs dad was, and he had gone to get her. She could have said something then. To either one of us. She didn't.

I would send a bullet point email.

X said y on this date.
A said b on this date

Both those showing the contradictory information re invoices etc.

Bullet point that they've accepted kids word you were broke (untrue) and therefore have acted unprofessionally.

I'd end it by saying as they believe they cancelled the late fee as a gesture of goodwill when the teacher handed the bill late you will pay the late fee this time as an equal gesture.

But however - as your ds has a disability you are requesting they make reasonable adjustments they are bound to make by law and ALL future invoices are sent to email ..... as he cannot be relied on to communicate effectively. That if they don't email the invoices and make the adjustments and again charge a late fee you will deal with it as disability discrimination.

Yes, you should have kept better track of your bills but they have not acted professionally and need to be made to do so from here on in.

Then if you don't pay your bill you have to accept they may bar him!

How anyone can owe any money of any amount and not think ' oh shit I having paid so and so' is beyond my thinking

Clearly. However that doesn't mean everyone is similarly limited.

@youarenotkiddingme they don't have an email address, all I have is a mobile number.

If most parents got late fees I might consider talking with them as a group about approaching the provider and/or the school as a group to improve the situation.

@haffiana I thought I had paid. Invoice said 40. I paid 40. Idk why they didn't invoice for the correct amount, but I paid the bill they issued.

I wouldn't focus on anything relating to your situation TBH, it's irrelevant. I don't mean that in a cruel way - just that it really doesn't matter here, the point is that their accounts are being properly managed.

You received an invoice for £40, and paid it. They've been missing invoices left, right and centre.

To give you an idea - since it's also an ASC - here's what our invoices have on them:

-Last invoice issues
-Breakdown of payments received since last invoice (dates and amounts)
-Balance outstanding from last invoice (can be plus or minus as people sometimes overpay)

then
-List of every session which is booked in for the next month; shows day, date, session type (Holiday, weekday, friday (longer so pricier))
-Total cost of sessions included in this month's invoice
-Amount due for payment, and the date it's due.

You can always tie ours together from month to month.

Text them to keep a record and ask they explicitly for an email address you can use to contact someone re invoices. Or an address you can send a recorded letter to.

Perhaps ask them via text for a copy of their invoicing and payments policy and complaints policy. Let them know you mean business and can deal with this properly.

They way they've behaved is unprofessional and I see form your updates from when I stopped reading to post that you actually paid the bill you'd received. But they'd invoiced wrong 🙄

And i have serious memory issues, plus one day melds into another so without literally sitting down and going through a calendar day by day with my bank statement, I can't keep track. I pay then I forget I've paid. Etc. As I said. I am being assessed for adhd. Both dc have it (and asd) That is what it does. Had they given me an invoice for 76 quid though, they'd have got 76. They asked for 40. I did pay the 40 off a verbal reminder from dc...xh has since found the invoice in dcs stuff (today) and it does indeed say 40 quid.

@statisticallychallenged that's like the tuition invoices we issue from work. My last asc invoice however has...dcs name, the address of the school dc attends, which is not the address of the company that runs the club, and '£40'. Other than that, no further details about what it's for...no 'week commencing 17th dec' etc.

They are utterly incompetent.

I'm surprised they don't charge if the DC don't attend

I would just calculate for the whole half term and pay it by bank transfer far less stressful.

I would also put a complaint in writing to Ofsted! What does your contract say about paying?

No contract. Its actually breakfast club which used to be a pay on the day or pay later on sims thing run by school but got taken over by the people who do the asc at the same school. Both dc used to be at the asc so I had a contract for that but they terminated the contract and returned my deposit once I stopped using it. I started using them for bc after this, payment terms are that there is a 25 quid late fee if you don't pay on time, so I am not actually arguing with the existence of the fee, just with the fact that if I did not realise the (generally pretty irregular) invoicing date had passed or if the amount on the invoice isn't correct how can I be at fault for not paying. If invoices were always every week or every fortnight then ok. But there would be one 4 weeks in, one two weeks later, one a week later, then nothing for 4 weeks and the staff would sometimes admit they were behind (cos I would ask at the door, have invoices been issued, could you give me mine when it has'. 'Oh she hasn't got round to it yet'

Op if you see my post previous I detailed what I meant to be on an invoice. That has been taken from the government website advice for business.

I wouldn't pay anything unless I have a breakdown for what I am being charged for. I don't care if it's Mary next door washing my undies or John Lewis for all the furniture and clothes i bought with store credit.

As someone said above take your personal circumstances out of this, that in the world of business is irrelevant. You need to focus on the fact that they are not being transparent. I would request a statement of account which should list all the payments you have made and the invoice it relates to and when that payment was made. If they can't provide this how can they prove you have made a late payment?

I also suggest having a calendar by the door at home with a pen so you can put down if care has been provided. Even if it's a simple dot with a Sharpe for each occurrence. This would help you to keep track. You can dispute an invoice for up to 6 years after if you can prove the error

Where does it state the payment terms and the £25 late fee, is it on the invoices?

No contract is a pretty catastrophic bollock dropping for a childcare provider. TBH, if their invoicing paperwork is this bad I'd be seriously concerned about things like registers (how do they know who they have in if there's an emergency or if they're in ratio), allergy and medical condition documentation, and so on.

@imalittleelf yes, sorry, thanks.

I got a handwritten list yesterday from them detailing what I have used and what I have paid. I am going through it now and can see what has happened i think...had had an invoice in Nov for far too much, asked them to check it against my payments. They reissued and I paid it, but the reissue was incorrect, it was less than I owed. I overpaid this invoice so had wrongly assumed at that point that I was in credit by a week. No details or dates on the invoice meant I didn't know which weeks it applied to but invoices had always up to then(at the point when they were regular before it went wrong) included the current week plus the next one. So i thought I was paid up until nov 15th. Didn't receive a further invoice so made an ad hoc payments for 44 and then the balance of 40 that dc told me about, which by my calculations had been right.

Personal circs just meant that when the invoice in which I was overcharged was issued back in nov I was out of it on diazepam and off work so was really rather reliant on them to add it up right...I was sure I didn't owe them nearly 200 quid...knew that was wrong as I had been paying, but I couldn't think straight enough to add up and work out what it actually should have been. Guess once it was paid it went out of my mind.

I really wish they had just been more pleasant about the whole thing.

@statisticallychallenged Payment terms are hand written and the date seems to be given on a whim...sometimes it can read 'please pay by sometimes you get a week.

The 25 late payment fee bit is on the bottom of the invoice.

I feel that there is fault on both sides. Do you use it a certain number of times per week, or does it change weekly? If it's always the same number of days- you should be aware that it is x amount per week, and pay that regularly. If you haven't received an invoice, you should have asked for one. They also seem lax on their side though providing them. Really comes down to though- you do t pay and they won't provide after school care.

I so hope they get audited by the taxman, and I don't say that lightly. If they issued an incorrect invoice, didn't reissue it and you've paid every invoice since then they don't have a leg to stand on with a late payment charge

@sd1978 I did ask for invoices and looking at the payments I made last half term I was counting then paying. Issue seems to have arisen when I asked them to check my payments and reissue an incorrect invoice (it was far too much) which they then reissued as too little, and I didn't realise.

Last updates not intentional dripfeed btw, only just got in and looked at the breakdown.

@statisticallychallenged they say I haven't paid every invoice since, that they either gave them to dc or to dcs teacher and that therefore it's not their problem if I didn't get them.
I had, however, made a stab at paying what I thought I owed, based on the last invoice I had received which I can now see was too low, so the extra week or so I paid on top of it was actually no such thing...

Their invoicing system sounds appalling.

You obviously need to pay but I would refuse to pay the late fee.

Ask for a full payment history and got though and check it all.

Ask for invoices to be mailed to you.

To be honest they need to changes the policy and start charging for all days booked, whether absent or not. Not paying for absent days makes keeping a record more complicated.

they don't have an email address, all I have is a mobile number.

How they send the emails is their problem. If they don’t have an email address they’ll have to get one.