To not pay this bill?

[whydobirds]

I'll try to keep this intelligible...

Dc attends wraparound care at school (not run by the school). It is invoiced for via paper invoices.

Except...I never get invoices. On occasion they will give one to dc, but it is usually wrong and needs correcting. On occasion they will put them in the register- they don't always get given out. Sometimes dc gets an invoice but loses it, or (and i only found this out tonight) sometimes they tuck them in an unused pocket in dcs bag so dc doesn't know they are there. Dc has ASD.

Dc mentioned to me in Christmas holidays thst there had been an invoice for 40 quid that they hadn't passed over to me. So I paid 40 quid.

Fast forward to Monday and the childcare had been through all their payments and realised i owed another 36. So i got an invoice for the 36 plus a late payment fee. Of 25 quid.

Their argument is I should have kept track of the childcare I had used, so I should have paid even if I didnt see invoices

Mine is that that isn't how business works, you pay when you get a bill or it just messes everyones accounting up, and last half term I spent a fair bit of time out of it on valium due to a severe injury to my back, so wasn't able to keep track of much - dcs dad, xh, was taking them in, but childcare still falls to me to pay.

I have tried to speak to them and explain that I didn't know I owed it as hadn't had the invoice so feel the late fee is unfair. They don't care, and the manager was really rude and aggressive to me. They have told me I lied about not receiving the invoices and that I lie about being in the playground every day to drop dc off. They've said they can't be expected to remember to ensure I get invoices brought to the door (when they hand everyone else's out), yet I am supposed to remember exactly what I have used. They told me they didn't give me the last invoice because dc told them i was skint (i wasn't and hadnt asked dc to say this), and that they don't want to invoice every week because it is a small amount, but then I am told I am lying when I say I had no knowledge of the invoice and I am told that they invoice me religiously every week (despite another member of their staff telling me they don't). I tried to explain that trying to keep track of things while on tranquilizers is impossible - they said they didn't care. I am told that I cannot rely on my child to twll me what I owe, yet they relied on my child telling them I was broke, and they rely on my child to deliver invoices.

On one occasion I received an invoice (one of the few I have had) via the teacher 3 days after the due date - I had to pretty much beg them to remove the late fee then, now they ate saying that that was a gesture of goodwill and they didn't have to do that.

If I refuse to pay the fine, they won't accept dc at the door, even though all childcare payments are now up to date. Dcs dad and I both start work well before school.
Feel like they've got me over a barrel. AIBU in thinking it's really not fair of them to do this, and that even if they believe I owe them the money, talking to me like a delinquent kid isn't on...and if IANBU, wtaf can I do other than acquiesce to someone who is fundamentally being a bully?

I think the the company is unreasonable in not ensuring that the invoices should be delivered reliably but presumably this is a regular arrangement. If so it should not be too difficult to keep track of the payments due.

I do have parents who work out their own fees and pay...they are always wrong...it's a right sodding pain. Hence the reason for a breakdown of fees on the invoice.

It love to know how they are reconciling their invoices on this system. They must be all over the place!

Apologies OP, cross posted.

Companies can invoice up to 6 years after the goods or service provision.

invoice must include:

a unique identification number
your company name, address and contact information
the company name and address of the customer you’re invoicing
a clear description of what you’re charging for
the date the goods or service were provided (supply date)
the date of the invoice
the amount(s) being charged
VAT amount if applicable
the total amount owed

Is an invoice a legal document? In and of itself, an invoice is not a legally binding agreement. If an invoice on its own was a legally binding document, then vendors could create bogus invoices and then force their clients to pay them. If both sides do not agree to the invoice, then it is not legally binding.

I would suggest reading the t&c for the contract. How have they send an invoice would be issued, how often, how quickly it should be paid.

The way they are issuing is sloppy and therefore they can not expect their clients to pay on time if they can't be bothered to issue invoices properly

The childcare company are being very unprofessional, you are ducking your responsibilities a little - you ought to keep track of at least what sessions are used so you can check their invoicing, but it doesn't really compare. What's the contract you have with them? Are they entitled to charge you for late payment? Under what circumstances? Often money is owed whether you receive an invoice or not, so you may just have to suck it up and start a routine to track and pay for sessions.

However, whether your contract puts the onus on you or them you are, as you point out, in a difficult position as you need their service. So you probably need to pay up, whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation. Can you complain to the school at all? Do you know what their agreement with the school is? Do they have to take children from the school providing billing is up to date, for instance? I would consider starting to put pressure on the school to change their after school contractor if you can.

It's not rubbish at all! If this was a credit card (which is exactly what op is getting, credit) and for some reason the statement got lost in the post should it be royal mail's fault? Would it just be ignored as you never received your statement? Or realistically would you think oh shit, I know my credit card is due payment I must find out how much I owe and pay it or I'm going to get a late fee?

I know which one I would choose.

There may be no relationship with the school at all.

Exactly. You've got to chase them up whenever it's due (shouldn't be how it is but it's certainly how it is with mine!)

If they can't get invoices correct, that actually show properly the services being invoiced for, how do they manage to pay things like tax returns. If there is a dispute, they should be able to provide you with involved they have issued and payment received. If you have paid electronically you will have a record, if you have paid cash, they should have issued a receipt and be able to show you that there us not one there. My daughter's playgroup used a receipt book so all receipts were together and could be easily checked. If they can provide them, they didn't prove you were late paying what was owed, as they don't know what was owed.

Just re-read and see it's based at the school - but they may literally be hiring the hall and nothing more.

Royal Mail - acceptable reliable method of transmission. Primary school age child - not.

Did you miss the bit where OP says their invoicing has been all over the place recently? There's no evidence that they even issued this invoice as far as I can tell. OP, can you confirm that? You mentioned paying an invoice, and paying another that your child said they'd forgotten to give you. Are they saying there's another one which you missed?

I would ask for a copy of all the invoices (which they will have as they have been ‘giving’ them to you plus they need them for their accountant).
And then Go through the invoices and check if they are actually correct

My gut feeling is that they aren’t tbh.

Other option is to pay so you still have childcare and find something else ASAP so you dint have to use people that are so unprofessional.

Oh god Zero - a credit card would have sent contractual terms about late payment charges. That is all the OP is disputing. As an intelligent person I wouldn't pay an invoice before I received it, save in exceptional circumstances. No such circumstances exist here - the childcare provider is just slapdash with invoicing. They routinely don't invoice when they should but OP has always paid regardless, and missed a small portion because they didn't give her an invoice.

Zero,

Royal mail would be a third party. This is like the credit card company not issuing a statement, expecting the customer to tot up their own expenditure and pay them...Which quite frankly they would never be stupid enough to allow to happen.

This is a business, providing a service that they are required to invoice for. The only reason OP should keep records is to make sure the invoice she receives is correct...ie; that they aren't overcharging her.

An invoice is a legal document, and by law you have to be provided with one if you ask for it.

Their accountant must be tearing their hair out if this is an example of the way they carry on.

You've got to chase them up whenever it's due

Nope sorry.

It’s not up to the customer to chase for an invoice etc... and certainly not every month. It’s also not up to the customer to create the invite but tracking when they have been in and how they own so they ca;pay wo the provider having to think about it.
It’s up to the provider if the service to do that. Accounts are their responsibility. If they want to be paid, they need to provide an invoice. If they dint have an invoice, they can be in big trouble with HMRC/accountant and the likes.

@SirGawain when I have made ad hoc payments they have not always taken them off the invoices...and there are days when she might not go in for one reason or another and tbh, I am stupidly busy and struggle to keep track of everything, for context, I leave the house at 6am and dont get in most nights till gone 9pm, (i am not even home yet, just dropped dcs at their dads) by which point I just crash. My dc don't live with me which means an awful lot of running around and little time to do anything adminy....especially those things which are actually someone else's job thst they get paid for. I love a spreadsheet, to whoever suggested that, but I would, in all honesty, forget to keep it up to date. (I am undergoing assessment for adhd atm)

I even asked them to invoice me for a term up front but they said there was no way they woukd be prepared to do this as I would probably end up in credit if dc missed a day or two...

Responding to the poster saying about getting an invoice lost in the post...

You are talking about professional companies that send regular invoices, you know when they normally come and when payment is expected

The ops issue is That the invoices have not been regular, the amounts have varied, not for a set number of sessions ect ect an u professional company

Also many credit card companies only charge £12 for late payment and also allow you to have online statements or view your account online so you can track how much credit you are using. Again things this company are not doing.

It's only a small company and I wonder if they are using their sloppiness as a way to get more money out of parents using late payment fees due for their own inadequacy of sending regular correct invoices.

An invoice where I work should be paid within 30 days of receiving a correct invoice, if the up has not received an invoice let alone a correct one then how can she pay?

YANBU. It’s their job and business to invoice you, and they have not done in a satisfactory way.
I would be annoyed too, why should you keep track of it, yes, keep a note of the hours they’ve done to check it’s correct, but not so you effectively have to do it yourself.

Ok well have to agree to disagree, I'm way past childcare but I do run my own business and pay my invoices religiously at the end of the month, if I have an invoice missing I call them and ask them to send the invoice so I can pay asap. How anyone can owe any money of any amount and not think ' oh shit I having paid so and so' is beyond my thinking. I'm out on this one.

Going with the credit card example; and time I've had a credit card not in direct debit I'd always get a reminder message just before/when payment was due if I hadn't remembered to pay it.

I would be very surprised if a late fee - of a punitive amount anyway - would stand up in court when there's no evidence of the payment having been requested by a reliable means.

Queenieislost I know it's not up to the customer however when you don't get an invoice (on a regular basis) I can't just sit back and do nothing! It's going to come back on me one day that I haven't paid so if I don't get one I think you should chase it up

purpleme12

Exactly!

OP - I've asked, and so has someone else, if there's a contract and late payment terms? Including details of how they invoice. If they're not doing their part, they can't enforce late payment imo but as you say, over a barrel. They'll hate it if you involve OFSTED for inappropriately sending financial messages via children and not invoicing. I'd be mentioning that.

I feel very sorry for any parent using them who is receiving tax credits or similar; we quite often get asked for statements of amounts paid. Getting this wrong could really screw someone up.

I'd suggest asking them for a full statement of all invoices and amounts paid since the start of the school year.

That sounds like a crazy system OP. I would insist on being invoiced regularly either by post or email and not via your child's school bag.

Maybe you should talk to some of the other parents and see if they are having similar problems but that is no way to run a business.