Mother of the groom .. wedding seating plan

[Watershipdrown]

Sorry but this may turn into an essay as I don’t want to drip feed.
Ds is getting married in 3 months time and was discussing the seating plan with his ds asking where she would like to sit etc. It came out that I am apparently sitting on the top table with exh next to me, as parents of the groom. Exh and I have been divorced for 23 years and I have been remarried to a wonderful man for 20 years. I haven’t spoken to exh in probably 15 years after police involvement for harassing me and making threats. My dh raised my 3 children as his own and we also have a son together. He has always treated the children as if they were his own, providing everything that they needed and wanted, while exh couldn’t even be bothered to keep up contact with them, despite living 20 mins drive away from us. Exh did not contribute anything in terms of maintenance for them, he did not turn up for visits and at one point told my dh to legally adopt them so that he would not be responsible for any money that they might need, all the while demanding a say in ridiculous things such as if they needed a haircut, I was expected to ask permission. Exh was controlling and physically and emotionally abusive and I was honestly relieved that he couldn’t be bothered to keep up contact, however I never tried to stop him, even though I probably should have. He was never threatening to the children but they witnessed some of his dv towards me. There was very little contact until ds was over 18 and could go into a pub and drink alcohol. They have built a shaky relationship now and I’m fine with that.
I am really hurt that dh has been relegated to a table with some other relatives and I really do not want to sit next to my exh at all. Dh is unaware of the seating plan and I can’t bring myself to tell him. I know how much he will be hurt and shocked as they have always had a great relationship.
I have tried to speak to ds about this and explain how uncomfortable this will be, but he’s adamant that it’s traditional and how they (Dil and ds) want it. I have said I would be fine not being on the top table, or exh and his partner being on it and dh and me perhaps at the other end but he will not change the plans. Dd has now fallen out with ds over this and told him just how wrong and incredibly inconsiderate it is to treat dh this way.
I know it’s their wedding and they can do what they like, seat people wherever they want etc. I know how hard it is to seat everyone and please everyone, but I do not want to be seated apart from dh to sit next to a man that made my life a living hell for years. AIBU ?

If a person just wants their mum and dad who they love sat with them on their wedding day (perhaps to mirror their other half's parents), why should the rights of their bickering parents take precedent?

Maybe if you actually love people then you don’t want them to be uncomfortable when you could put them two seats over and still be at the same damn table. Literally can’t imagind treating my mum like that for the sake of ‘mirroring’. Anyway, aren’t they more likely to ‘bicker’ if forced next to each other?

I think OP you are being v reasonable. Can they not at least put someone like best man between you? It’s probably good to explain to ds why you feel how you do - as you said he may not have been aware about everything that went on with your relationship. Also explain to him about your DH and how it would make him feel and that you are ok not being at top table. He may not agree but at least he will have info

I’d keep the conversation with DS, very simple.

“I will feel very uncomfortable sitting next to your father, there was police involvement because of his behaviour towards me. Please don’t make me sit next to him”

I can’t see how anyone can refuse your request.

Also if they go worth hr traditional way of sitting, it won’t be a problem as you’ll be next to father of the bride.

Watershipdrown "I will speak to them both again." Good

"I’m definitely not going to say that I won’t go in order to get my own way. I wouldn’t want to guilt any of my children into doing something that they don’t want to do, but I do think I may need to explain a bit more." But your son is trying to push you into sitting next to a man who abused you. His behavior is frankly despicable. I'm so sorry. I think you need to make it clear what he is asking you to do on his big day!

I'm not sure how you have explained your feelings to your son but does he really understand the extent of the domestic violence you suffered from his father? what I mean is, it may well be easier for him to minimise it and/or block it out, and if they witnessed it when younger maybe he has blocked that out consciously or subconsciously.
Is it worth reiterating that he was abusive and that that is not something that just goes away, in no uncertain terms - no need to go into unpleasant details, but is it possible that he is, on some level fooling himself or pretending that because it was in the past it doesn't affect you now? does he know in a very clear way that you had to involve the police?
I'd make sure not to mix up the two issues around seating either. You are shocked at the seating of his stepfather, of course, but he seems to be unmoved by that, but trying to put you next to your ex-partner is the more obviously wrong thing to do. If you talk to him about it I'd make sure to focus on that one and the effect that specifically is having on you, as it seems that that is the most worrying and also something that he really really should understand.
Have you thought about writing it down in a letter to give to him, for him to read and mull over? that way you can say it exactly how you want to and there is less chance for miscommunication or him overlooking certain things.

YANBU. Being acrimonious with your ex and sucking it up for the sake of your DS is one thing, BUT this ex physically/mentally abused you and harassed you. By telling you that you need to sit next to him, he’s essentially saying it was completely fine with what he did.

I agree with other posters, are you sure that your ex isn’t involved with this? Maybe he’s expressed that you should be sat together, so that on the face of it it looks as though everything is forgiven and forgotten....even though it’s not?

IMO, i would show him/her any police reports/court documents in order that they are more compassionate and understanding.

If this doesn’t work then l would be incandescent with rage.

Could you chat to future daughter in law about it and explain it all and see what she thinks? Maybe she wants it to be really traditional etc but doesn't realise the full picture?

Explain to her in full detail all that you've told us about how your Ex and your DH have behaved in turn and then ask her which one she would honestly hope her new DH would choose as a role model and attempt to emulate, both as a DH and DF (should he become the latter).

This is what happens when you bend over backwards to allow your DC to have a relationship with an abusive parent.

I was in this situation with my DM and DF. I wanted them both at my wedding because I thought that was the right thing to do. My DM refused to be in the same room as someone who had been repeatedly violent to her.

In the end, my DH and I got married with just witnesses. My DM was very hurt and it ruined our relationship for a long time.

Older and wiser now, I would have chosen my DM. I knew some but not all of what had gone on. As I get older, I have become increasingly angry that everyone around me pretended that he was a good father whilst I was a child. He wasn’t. He was a selfish and egotistical man who had me on egg shells for my entire childhood. He never physically hurt me but he didn’t need to. I was frightened of upsetting him for years.

A good father does not hurt the mother of his child (or anyone else for that matter) and pretending that these men are capable of being parents is so wrong.

I hurt my my DM a second time when I threw in her face all that she had done to bring me up. I didn’t do it on purpose but because I had been conditioned never to hurt my DF’s feelings.

Time for a frank conversation with your DS I think.

And please don't try and drag DIL's parents into it - you'll just be perceived to be creating a massive drama.

Agreed. But I wonder if it's the DIL's parents who are insisting on sitting together? (Sorry if I've missed someone else saying this)

I can understand them wanting "tradition" - in normal circumstances - but (a) these aren't normal circumstances and (b) it's not tradition anyway and I think that at the very least should be pointed out to your DS.

I really appreciate all the replies.
I don’t want to go into too many details about the dv, on here or with my son. It took me years to not physically flinch when my dh put his arm around me or made a sudden movement and I like to think that I’m a very different person now. It probably sounds very dramatic but even thinking that I will have to sit next to him for a few hours and make small talk makes me feel sick and anxious and and I start to shake. I’m thrown right back to the time we were married and the anxiety that I used to feel is resurfacing. My dh has noticed that I’m quiet and on edge after just a few days of me knowing, but I’ve said I’m just tired and work is busy etc and this wonderful man is looking for a mini break for us, to get away for a bit. I know if I told him the truth he would be beyond hurt by ds’s actions, but is a very pragmatic man and would deal with it. He’ d very likely talk me down from this anxiety and tell me how strong I am and I can do it ! But the truth is, I don’t WANT to, I don’t care what day it is, I don’t want to sit next to someone that even after all this time can make me feel this way. I want to shout and tell ds that this tradition and etiquette is bollocks and really all about this staged, intstagrammable life that they live ( dd’s words but true !). I want to tantrum and throw in ds’s face all of the things dh has done for him and all of the things exh didn’t do, but of course I won’t ! I will have a calm conversation, but will be firm in that I will not sit next to exh and seating arrangements will need to be changed. It isn’t about including dh on the top table at all, although I’m hurt and upset and it does feel like a personal sleight on dh, I can’t help those feelings.
To the poster that said she could hold a conversation with other people and didn’t need dh at her side, I am obviously not joined at the hip with dh, and don’t have to be in his company 24/7. I too am a grown up, able to have a good time without my dh at my side. Ds can sit us apart, anywhere in the room and that would be ok, but just don’t sit me next to exh.

Sorry but to the few posters who have said, quite unbelievably, the OP should be the bigger person and sit next to their ex - ARE YOU ON GLUE?

You SERIOUSLY think a woman who was physically abused by this man should have to sit next to him? What fucking planet are you on?

OP I think it is sad that your son has put his biological father over the dad that brought him up in terms of top table. I can put that to one side allowing for "their day, their choice". But it's absolutely disgraceful that he thinks this is OK. I'm not normally one for kicking off about someone else's wedding, but this is so far from OK to be shocking. The fact that you have said "I would rather sit with DH on another table" and he's ignoring this fact and the reason you've suggested this is appalling. I would have no hesitation in stating, bluntly, "I'm on that other table with DH or we will simply attend the church and then go home and have no further part in your wedding".

If they stick to their guns, stick to yours. I'm very sorry for you, but you have an arsehole for a son but a bloody good daughter.

Oh @Watershipdrown. You are so completely reasonable.

You don’t need to go into lots of detail about what actually happened with your son, but do tell him that (even after all these years) the mere thought of having to sit next to his father makes you feel like that. It doesn’t sound (over)dramatic at all.

Your DD is right and will probably do the shouting on your behalf by the sounds of it.

Wanting your husband’s support (and acknowledgment of the important role he’s played in your family since your DS was small) is not pathetic. I sometimes wonder at people’s comprehension skills: they see wedding and decide to get on their high horse about ‘etiquette’ etc but fail to notice crucial facts about abuse and harassment. But, hey, they are totally able to chat to strangers without their husband which must be exactly the same situation as you being expected to sit next to your abusive exH.

This is why weddings are more trouble than they are worth.

You wouldn't turn up in a bikini leading a giraffe down the aisle 'because it's the wishes of the bride and groom' would you?You do have a right not to sit next to ex DH if you don't want to.

Honestly, the hassle one bloody day causes!

I think you're right. It's not great he's snubbed your husband but his choice and they have to draw the line somewhere. It is not fair though to sit you next to someone that committed a crime against you. I'd tell your son you're scared of this man, you're worried you will have a panic attack and take the attention off them and ruin the wedding. Hopefully this will change their mind

"To the poster that said she could hold a conversation with other people and didn’t need dh at her side, I am obviously not joined at the hip with dh, and don’t have to be in his company 24/7. I too am a grown up, able to have a good time without my dh at my side. Ds can sit us apart, anywhere in the room and that would be ok, but just don’t sit me next to exh."

"But, hey, they are totally able to chat to strangers without their husband which must be exactly the same situation as you being expected to sit next to your abusive exH."

I was specifically responding to a poster who asserted that "everyone would prefer to sit next to their partner at a wedding". Like it's a cardinal sin generally to seat a couple seperarely (e.g. because one has a "top table" role and the other doesn't).

OP - I think you're 100% right that you shouldn't sit next to your ex.

Anything else I've posted has been constructive suggestions as to how the OP can speak to her DS to ensure that she doesn't sit near her ex. I just tried to give her DS the benefit of the doubt based on what the OP had said.

If he isn't aware of a lot of what went on and of exactly how the OP feels, I think the approach needs to be different.

If he knows full well and is still sticking to his guns, then he's an absolute arsehole and I'm sorry, OP.

Imagine if it was reversed - "DM doesn't want to sit next to my DF at my wedding - they are divorced and he abused her during their relationship. DM has gently voiced that she's uncomfortable with that plan and could we find another solution. AIBU to refuse and force them to sit together?"

Er Yes!

Your son is being completely unreasonable. It's just not fair on anyone - I don't understand why he is still insisting on that particular seating plan when it's upsetting to you, your current DH and I'm sure your ExH isn't super keen on it either.

Sigh, weddings. This is why I eloped!

Good luck in speaking to your DS again OP. I know you don't want to go into detail about the DV with your DS, but can you be honest with him about how ill it is making you feel, at just the thought of sitting next to your Ex.

@elvis86

I was specifically responding to a poster who asserted that "everyone would prefer to sit next to their partner at a wedding". Like it's a cardinal sin generally to seat a couple seperarely (e.g. because one has a "top table" role and the other doesn't).

That was me, and I actually posted, "To be fair, most people would want to sit with their partner during a wedding, especially for moral support when their abusive Ex is attending." which I still stand by. Don't twist my words around to make your point.

I really feel for you and hope it gets worked out. Good luck in talking to your son and his fiancee, they are being very inconsiderate. My position wasn't as bad as yours but I physically could not sit beside by X, even for our children.

*BlackCatSleeping" - sorry I misquoted you.

You're still asserting that "most people would want to sit with their partner during a wedding", so I still stand by my opinion.

What ShatnersWig said.
I cannot believe the amount of posters who are using words like “creating drama “ and “bickering parents “. FFS, cop on. OP is a victim of historic domestic violence. Fucking stop minimising this and sweeping it under the carpet. This is what happened a long time ago, when these great “traditions” were upheld, men could rape their wives and women were even more subjugated to men than they are now.
OP, you are not being “dramatic” enough. You were a victim of crime and now your beloved son wants you to sit next to the perpetrator of those crimes and smile. Just no.

No. It's absolutely right for you to have boundaries, "their day" or not. Not sitting next to your abuser is a valid red line, and you should stick to it. Your son's attitude is disgusting, and if he were mine I would be writing him a very frank letter telling him that I was ashamed of him and very, very hurt.

The very public rejection of his stepfather is also shocking and I would be asking him whether he is aware of the level of permanent damage he is doing to family relationships here, for the sake of "their day". People are not chess pieces, you can't treat them this way, wedding or not.

Threads like this really make me question whether posters are just bots replying to key words in the original post. Of course it's not unreasonable for a woman to decline sitting next to the man who abused her. Top table etiquette is an absolute cop out. The etiquette police won't be at the wedding scoring the seating plan

I don't know what the answer is @Watershipdrown but I hope you come to some sort of agreement that you are comfortable with.

I think your DS is being incredibly mean. Why the hell can't your DH sit up at the top table with you? Sod tradition and ettiquette, you've brought this boy up and he should want his Mum to be happy and sat with her DH. And no no no, you should not have to sit next to your vile ex DH.

Sorry if I've missed it, but is your exDH with someone now?

I think you need to be explicitly clear why this is not OK and explain in graphic terms why you do not want to sit next to him. Say that unless a solution can be found you will not be sitting at the top table. The other solution of course, if they refuse to reconsider, is on the day have a word at the venue when you arrive after the ceremony and ask them to add an extra place setting next to your DH. Not a lot your DS can do at that point really...