Slight confrontation with dog owner today

[ReecesPeaces]

DH and I do not own a dog but every couple of weeks we will take a friend's dog for a walk in the local countryside. She is a gorgeous, gentle dog and very well trained. A small cockapoo. The owners encourage us to let her off the lead when she is out and away from roads etc and most of the other local dog owners do the same.

Today we were walking through the countryside area and there were plenty of other people there, most had dogs and most dogs were off the lead. The dog we walk generally approaches other dogs her size in a friendly playful way and shies away from bigger dogs, she usually jumps up at me of a big dog comes near and I scoop her up and we carry on. Anyway we saw a woman with four dogs approaching, three small ones and one rottweiler. I was wary of the rottweiler as a family member used to have one which was very aggressive. All of this woman's dogs were off the lead.

Before I could get our dog on the lead she ran up to the smaller ones who started growling and chasing her aggressively. All four dogs then started chasing ours round and round, the Rottweiler wasn't being aggressive but two of the smaller ones were and trying to bite our dog (at this point the owner of he other dogs was going "it's fine it's fine) who ran up to me and thankfully I managed to pick her up and the other dogs then lost interest.

The owner started shouting at me and DH slightly aggressively saying "I said it was fine!" We hadn't said anything at all at this point we had just been calling our dog to us. The owner was angry we had picked ours up and kept saying "I told you it was fine! That's the worst thing you can do to pick a dog up in that situation, I'm an expert!" We walked away as I just wanted to get away from her and thought she was being confrontational.

Is this the norm for dog walking in public spaces or was this woman in the wrong? It puts me off getting a dog permanently as there was a moment when I really felt something awful could have happened.

I have to say, I do get a bit confused about how dogs have not learned as puppies how to approach other dogs.

Mine is fine with the approach, it's calling him away that's the problem. He won't approach closer than 5-6 feet but he also won't come back either!

So, I do the right thing and put him on a lead around other dogs because I know his recall isn't brilliant - but then I get criticised for not letting him off the lead. He's a beagle so his recall isn't brilliant at the best of times - he does come back but when he wants to!

I think it's understandable that a lot of dog owners are scared to let their dogs off, especially if they've done it before and the dog has done a runner or gotten itself into a tricky situation. I've met a lot of unpleasant owners who seem to dislike puppies/young dogs who behave less than perfectly when out and about.

I don't want to let mine off unless it's a deserted beach/field because I know he probably wouldn't come back if he saw another dog or caught a scent. So I get criticised for keeping him on a lead all the time. But when I do let him off and he doesn't come back straight away, I get criticised for that as well!

Smother, I think a lot of connection between humans and animals has been lost.

When I was a kid if the dog growled at you when it was eating its food - it was your fault for disturbing the dog when you knew it didn't like being disturbed when eating - if you got nipped it was your own stupid fault for not heeding its growl! - Now days that dog is food protective aggressive and needs to be trained out of this aggressive dog. People moan when a dog gives chase to a screaming child who is waving their arms all over the place - what happened to parents telling their kids to stand still with arms down and not sound like an excited yapping dog with arms looking very much like a tail stuck up in the air wagging. I find it interesting that we expect dogs to learn our language and behaviours but make no effort to learn theirs - are we really saying dogs are cleverer?

People expect dogs to conform to some sort of human standards. Although my dog has designs on being human at times - she is a dog, she speaks dog (although cleverly knows some human words), she acts like a dog, because she is a dog and we have allowed her to be one. We work with her being a dog rather than trying to treat her as a baby (although she likes snuggling down with her family). When we took her on - we understood it was our responsibility to help her become a good dog, not her responsibility to adapt to become my baby or my sons sibling. I love her as a dog - with all the wonderful things a dog brings.

It takes time and effort to understand any animal - people don't want to do this anymore. Everything has to be immediate these days, so its easier to blame poor behaviour (which is often perfectly natural) because it doesn't fit in with our expectations and isn't what a human would do. Its easier to keep a dog on a lead when out, because we spent so much time showing off our cute bundle on facebook rather than teaching them to come to a particular whistle pattern which most dogs will learn in days in the back garden if you tie it in with food or play from day one (much more effective than shouting a word, esp over a long distance as it cuts through all the other words being shouted in public).

We end up with dogs banned from beaches in the summer, demands to keep all dogs on leads etc. dog walkers trampled by cows because they have walked between cow and calf, numerous animals dumped because they don't live up to the human qualities portrayed as normal by Disney et al. People are keeping kids away from animals rather than teaching them to behave round them appropriately. Many dog owners cant understand why their dog behaves the way it does so cant anticipate problems or solve them as they arise. They don't take the time to listen to and observe their dog - most dogs are actually very predicatable if you understand that dog rather than expecting it to adhere to some preconceived ideas.

Many people seem to understand how their iPhone works better than language of the sentiment animals we bring into our homes. When pregnant we spend months/years pouring over books on how to bring up a mini one of our own kind, when so many people just head off one Saturday afternoon to bring a cute looking living creature into our lives, who don't act like or communicate like us after reading a couple of internet articles and a leaflet from pets at home.

We are losing the art of communication, we talk to each other over email/text - we lose the art of picking up non- verbal signs both human and animal

Its easier to keep a dog on a lead when out, because we spent so much time showing off our cute bundle on facebook rather than teaching them to come to a particular whistle pattern which most dogs will learn in days in the back garden if you tie it in with food or play from day one (much more effective than shouting a word, esp over a long distance as it cuts through all the other words being shouted in public).

But not all dogs WILL recall well, no matter how much training you put in to it - I find your post to be pretty judgemental about those of us who have dogs with naturally poor recall.

Scent dogs, huskies and malamutes have notoriously poor recall through no fault of their owners. So what would you prefer - those dogs kept on lead for their own safety, or let off lead to run wherever they choose because believe me, once they're on a scent, you have absolutely no hope of getting them back, no matter what whistle patterns you've practised or what treats you have in your pocket.

Adaline - sounds quite well trained for a Beagle. You see he has learned how to behave like a dog! He is being polite, he is not crowding a dog without invitation. If dog owners are upset by a dog standing patiently several feet away, they really shouldn't be in dog areas

If he wont recall but is happily standing there, not affecting anyone else just go and get him, apart from the wear and tear on your hip joints, a dog waiting for you is just as effective as a dog bounding back across a park to you.

Some dogs don't like coming back - have you tried teaching him to wait for you, ie just stop where he is?

@deadbudgie - thank you! He's a work in progress that's for sure but he's much better than he was even a few months ago. He's also in the middle of his teenage phase which undoubtedly makes things harder!

His wait command isn't very good - he's just too impatient! He had a long line but chewed through it so maybe we need to get another one and keep him on that for a while!

Adeline. Sounds like he’s coming on nicely to me - blummin teenagers eh! It’s hard training against hundreds of years of breeding! But you’ll get there. Don’t know whether you’ve tried the wait, catch up with him then go where he was heading together (it’s natural instinct to drag them back on your route - but then they are, in their mind penalised for waiting). That way he gets his reward (ie can follow his scent with the added bonus of a fellow hunter whilst also pleasing you. You could try it on a long training/police line if you would feel more comfortable and in control. You’ll be working with natural instincts too

Brilliant thank you I'll try it! I've ordered another long line which arrives tomorrow so I'll try him on that and do the wait/follow thing which might help.

Thank you for your advice!

Adaline - good luck. Beagles are so intelligent I’m sure he’ll pick it up really quickly.

Hi OP, just before Christmas i had both of my dogs off the lead in an open area used by dog walkers. A van pulled up and before it had stopped 4 dogs jumped out and headed strait for my Jack Russell (i also have an American pit bull pup who only turned 1 2 weeks ago), their dogs were different sizes but managed to bite a massive wound on one of his back legs and cut the skin on the other.
You bet i picked the dog up and gave the owners a mouth full. They also tried to run me over as i blocked the road as the police were on the way

Adaline - I'm in a similar situation to you. I have a big 11 month labrador type puppy, training to be a working dog, who just wants to play with other dogs. His recall is fine if there are no other dogs around but I can't and don't want to keep him on the lead all the time (we have and still do whistle training every meal since he was 8 weeks old so they don't all pick it up in a day). I have met some absolutely horrible people with and without their own dogs recently who have told me to keep him on the lead ( in a recreation ground), call him a bloody nuisance and threaten to kick him just for approaching them (not jumping up). They then pick up their precious dogs and walk away while I shout at them to please stop so I can put him on the lead, or even worse throw balls for them so he goes running off. Last time I had a dog 4/5 years ago nearly all the other dog owners I met were nice people, not anymore it seems. They don't seem to understand dogs are not the same as children.

Yep I've noticed the same with people being very intolerant towards puppies and teenage dogs- they seem to expect all dogs to have perfect behaviour at such a young age. I can't help but feel it's a tad unrealistic to expect puppies to behave the same as adult dogs!

I think a lot of people either can't remember what having a puppy was really like or they all got rescues and had dogs come to them pretty much fully-trained.

Comments saying "well any dog should be able to pick x up in days" don't help either. Not all dogs are the same and they all act differently in different situations. Mine will do all the things mentioned above - wait for his food, sit nicely when asked, waits before going through doors etc. but he's an adolescent scent dog with patchy recall!

I'm thankful my daycare realise that and are much more patient with him than a lot of owners I meet (and all the perfect owners on here of course!)

OP, could you get a black plastic dog-whistle and whistle train the dog. It is really easy to do and quick.
Your (borrowed) dog sounds a little sweetie, but she is still learning and it is probably safer for her not to bounce up to a pack of unknown dogs who probably thought they were protecting their owner.
Once she is whistle-trained, she is free to bed off lead and when she comes back to you, treat & distract.

I feel for you as you have had some very unkind & critical remarks. It is just a breed characteristic that these friendly, clown like dogs just like to say hello to every dog coming and not all dogs are friendly.

They were probably playing and excited growling/barking but obviously without being there I don’t know for sure.

We have a really nice matured border terrier who is great with other dogs but unfortunately we have had run ins with nasty Jack russells mostly so if we see a dog we don’t like the look of or an owner who looks dodgy we put him on the lead and go in a different direction.

We totally judge it just on how they look and the dogs approaching might be fine, but after a few horrible situations we think it’s better to be safe than sorry.

On a few occasions I have picked our dog up, and would continue to do that. I don’t know what she was talking about but if your dog is being attacked you need to get it out of that situation. So I agree with you.

I would say if you don’t like the look of the dog or owner just keep out the way of them - I find that makes it less stressful.

It really annoys me that people with aggressive dogs often continue to walk their dogs in busy dog walking places. They should find somewhere quiet to walk their dog if it causes trouble.

Also I should note our dog is almost too friendly and goes running up to all dogs trying to play - which some dogs don’t like, which is why we steer him away from them unless the dog looks playful. Usually we know we’re save with labradoodles, cockapoos and labradors, not so much with other terriers.

In my opinion She should not of had all the dogs loose if they dont have good recall and apporoach other dogs without having permission, even if they had approached in a friendly manner she hasn't made sure the dog you had was safe around other dogs (I know you said they are but she did not know that, as you did not know if hers where safe. That's just my opinion

As a dog owner of four dogs I find it's best I do not let all of mine off the lead together the main reason is they would love to leg it, even though individually and in pairs they have amazing recall but four off together they are little shots and become deaf. and once i had to chase them for 2 hours while they went on a little jolly through field's to the beach, and into rivers, .. my doctor found them playing in his field with his horse in the end ....that's another story it happened once it's never happened since. MIL has a secure field and twice a week they get let lose there together all four after i have done a perimiter check and I know it is secure and they cannot get out

Also when we are in a field/any area where they could come across other dogs. For a few reasons.
Although my dogs are big they are very very friendly and love to play and meet new dogs, even cats, one particularly likes my cousins bunny, I've socialised them very very well. The reason I do not let them all off at the same time is I do not know how another dog (of any size) will react to my big stupid softies, my dogs do not approach people or other dogs without permisson, and I do not know if other dogs or.people are afraid of big dogs for whatever reason, (previously attacked,/generally just an anxious / afraid or intimidated by their size or that there being more than one in the vicinity.

Another reason I do not let all of mine off together is being larger breed of dog they automatically have a stigma attached to them and sometimes people assume we are thick twats that cannot control our dogs, we have had people shout and say things about our dogs being dangerous because of their size more than once. when in actual fact our dogs are very very obedient so rather than draw unwanted and negative attention I choose to keep my dogs on the leads, where they all walk to heel and it can be seen they are under control.

When I see people and other dogs approach I always ask the owner how their dog is with big dogs as mine are great with all sized dogs if their dog is fine I ask if they mind if I let one off at a time in turns to play to them their dog. If their dog doesn't like big dogs or the owner is unsure I politely say no problem at all and we move out of their way and carry on....

The women was wrong imo to react to you the way she did, neither of you knew each other or the other dogs it's stupid to assume all dogs are ok and all dog owners have control and are responsible owners/sitters/walkers

Not all ddogs will recall well.
Not all ddogs are good family animals
Not all ddogs are friendly or have the temperament to be out amongst the community at large and its animals.

Stop buying ddogs that are known to have no recall, or bad, or unknown, temperaments.

Research a ddog, don't let them down.

Find the right size, with exercise needs you can meet and a biddable temperament.

Learn how to make your ddog stop in an instant, for yours, its own and everyone else's safety and well-being.

I cannot have my precious ddogs run into a road, or off a cliff, they have to stop the instant I whistle or they could die.

I cannot have them run into people, or they could be perceived as a threat and euthanised.

You cannot control everything, but I am very happy for youngsters to run up to them and learn some good manners.

Mind you, long enough within a litter, bred and raised well teaches them a lot of this from both litter mates and their mother who will tire of having her ears bitten and tail tugged incessantly!

I expect dpups and youngsters to tear arse up to ddogs, its what they do.

Although, I have always called out to others to forewarn or avert if necessary.

Each time you buy blind you risk letting down an animal that's counting on you.

How many ddogs in rescue centres.

Stop buying ddogs that are known to have no recall

This is a really ridiculous statement. No dog is perfect - so should nobody have a dog? Labradors, for example, are seriously mouthy and very chewy as pups. That could be very scary for small children on the receiving end.

And as for "my dogs must stop" - you realise they are animals, right? They are not perfect and no dog in the world has 100% perfect recall. They might at the moment, but all dogs have the ability to get scared or stop listening or get caught up in the moment and bolt. Don't pretend yours are any different to anyone else's in that regard!

I couldn't pick my Scolly ( Staff x Colley) up if I tried he's such a lump. Not fat just solid 😂😂😁🤣😄😅😆

Generally I never pick any of mine up.

However one isn't keen on large dogs and is mostly on the lead. If someone lets their dog run over and start jumping all over him I do pick him up. Mostly because he's 4 stone of staffy x and I know he'll get the blame if he tells the other dog to get lost 😬

Thankfully most people see him on a lead and don't let their dogs run over and bother him.

I couldn't pick up up my massive ddogs either, but even today I had a small terrier shout its head off at mine, which they completely ignored.

Commonly the comment is 'oh its all bark and no bite', those who say this are normally the first to start shouting at the tops of their voices of mine 'shout back' as a result of the aggressive approach.

Reading this thread has really brought to mind how sick of this kind of attitude I am, and how frequent the attacks we experience by smaller ddogs, and larger ones.

I have had to shout very aggressively at one attacking one of mine, a few years ago.

Shouted loudly at said ddog to make it take notice and stop, which it did. Owner, who had been passive to her ddog attacking one of mine was vile, aggressive, and abusive to me as a result.

It's a minefield. I try to go where there aren't loads of ddogs and their owners now. I avoid all the local common ddogwalking spaces.

Many years ago when two of my teens were under 10 and we were all out walking (I thought in a not commonly ddogie frequented area of large open countryside), the two DC had lagged behind as we climbed a steep foothpath; as myself and a friend climbed the brow of the hedgerowed path, literally a pack of 8 or so ddogs hurtled round a corner and ran barking at my two DC all in a frenzy.

I had to scream back to them to stand still in the face of this incoming 'pack' and to turn their backs.

It was a dog-walking service, and I wish I'd reported them. They laughed and said all the ddogs were friendly, she didn't seem to acknowledge at all that the ddogs were excited 'as a pack' and she didn't even attempt to stop them...I think probably didn't have control of them so didn't try.

Nope. What's ridiculous is buying a ddog that is known for its ignorance when it comes to recall, unless you are very experienced in training.

As for the Labrador comment...absolutely agreed, who the hell buys a known mouthy dpup when they have small DC?! Who does that? Absolutely plenty, and that's what's ridiculous, and if they can't get them through responsible breeders they go to puppy farms, because they will have their ddog, that they want, and it'll get thrown on the rubbish heap when they can't manage it.

Smother I do agree that people often buy totally unsuitable breeds of dogs. Although to some extent it’s something people have to learn by mistake.

When buying a first horse, you would be better with a plodding old cob, but how many people go and buy the flashy chestnut Arab mare? Some people buy dogs that are too much for them if inexperienced. They are not going to do the whole Barbara wood house “sit there’s a good boy” routine without a lot of work. I always come back to what are these dogs bred for? If it’s a good example of the breed, the traits it has need to be worked with and think about how that will fit in with your requirements, it’s very hard to work against nature

We have friends who want a dog. They’re set on a Labrador cos they’re lovely. Images of long country walks etc. Now this family are extremely house proud of their quite small house with postage stamp garden. They have a youngish dc who’s frightened of dogs. They have never owned a dog.

Now I love labs. Have owned them, we still have gun dogs in the wider family. When I pointed out their house would probably be wrecked, leather would be eaten (inc the corner of their new sofa) all textiles would turn the colour texture and shade of their dog.

Anything in their house would be a potential chew toy.

The puppy would get big quickly. It would be bouncy for the next two years and unlikely to notice if it knocked over their DC and would prob chew on them.

Coming walking in the woods with our small dog was only enjoyed by The DH. The rest of the family are not outdoorsy.

But they want a lab as they’re lovely. I’d love a lab but don’t have the time for the exercise or inclination to deal with my home being trashed that I know will come with it some we currently have a different breed.

Yes, ditto for many breeds, beagles recall, labs for not growing up! And being uber mouthy babies, charging into things and huge exercise demands, spaniels fucking crackers, often very nervy, and crossbreeds, well how can you even begin to guess! The buyers of malamutes and the like, frankly, cruelty, unless one of the few with sufficient time and land, plus continual escape from the heat during some of our summers to be fair on the ddog.

No, I think sadly, the ddogs get dumped, or rehomed, and only a few 'learn' the hard way, but noone has to go into this bliind and make animals pay for owners sickeningly poor judgement around reality.

Why can't people just get some idea of what they are getting into beforehand, and whether they can offer any given breed what it needs, or even try hard enough to avoid financing the puppy farmers!!

Sadl

@DishingOutDone - the op's dog was off lead and approached the other dogs first.

@adaline

Train more - keep using the longline, practice practice practice - let the line trail, vary your reinforcers, play games where your dog needs to check in, then gradually shorten the trailing line, practice recalling, sending away, recalling, treat, send away..

Vary your location, vary the amount of distraction.

Be more interesting to your dog than other dogs out there, don't walk the same routes day in day out, break it up, you can even simply reverse a route or, walk the other side of the road or play games in different places if you are seriously limited in places to walk.

If your recall cue has been poisoned, ie it now means 'piss about come back if theres nothing better' or 'if you come back now the leads going on, funs over' then change your recall cue.

Change your habits too - if you walk on a beach with not a lot to do except scan the horizon for other dogs to play with/chase/annoy, thats what your dog is going to do.

Make a habit of going on some walks where you walk with friends but NOT off lead, so your dog starts to learn about being around other dogs but NOT playing.

Sometimes its about changing your mindset on what a walk should actually be - many people think a walk should be 'find some other dogs, let my dog off to play, job done'. If you change your walks to be 'an amount of time where I and my dog explore places, work together, play games', you can change that habit!

And some dogs just won't ever be reliable off lead - keep the long line on them, walk in places that are better suited, fewer dogs or at least, less long distance views of other dogs playing.

I use Biothane longlines as these can be left to trail and wiped clean, and don't absorb liquid so don't get steadily heavier and heavier.

Also use a well fitting harness with a Y shaped front NOT a horizontal across the chest front (these impede shoulder movement and will cause damage over time).