AIBU to think there should not be equal split

[Thinker03]

Ok so DH dad passed away 2 years ago. He owned a flat which he purchased with my DH and his sister, DH never lived there but was quite young when he was put on the mortgage purely to help his dad out. The sister always has and still does live in the house. When the dad was alive he paid his mortgage ALONE. No help from the sister on the mortgage or one of the other now adult siblings who occupies a room rent free.

For background info there's 5 Adult siblings including my DH.

When his dad died as house was joint tenancy it passed straight to DH and his sister. Despite the fact that there is 5 Adult siblings all together because they all have their own lives and "are so broke" DH and his sister have been going half on the mortgage. The plan is to sell when market improves asap.

So as not to drip feed info. DH and I have 2 kids we want to have more but canr yet as we are too stretched for money and too stressed. We have struggled to pay our bills our mortgage plus half of mortgage on Dads old house which is now technically DH and his sister house. DH has never lived in house. Also for added info we won't be going on holiday this year as we can no longer afford it. DH has been doing overtime at work.

By the way the dad always spoke about wanting his kids to split the house if anything happened to him but no he didn't have a will and couldn't of really stipulated such anyway due to the way the house was set up a long time ago. (Joint tenancy)

Other than the sister DH is going halves on mortgage with there is also an adult brother living in the house unemployed and rent free. As he is "Just trying to get on feet"

There are also 2 other siblings who have kids of their own and like I said "So broke" and have never offered to help pay the mortgage in light of our situation.

Recently they have been talks of the house being sold and the fairest way to split the house. There's been mention of an equal spilt between them all. AIBU to suggest that an equal spilt is no longer applicable since only DH and his sister have been paying the mortgage?

The figures seem odd - it was bought 17 years ago for £200k, is now worth £800k but has been worth £950k (that last seems unlikely, house prices have not dropped that much, if at all), but the mortgage is £2,200pm? For under a £200k mortgage (c£85k left) after 17 years? Seems really high to me.

Are you sure no-one has remortgaged it?

Vangogh this is what I'm wondering. None of the figures add up. Forget what it's "worth". It's only worth what a buyer will pay for it. I'm assuming it's London prices as it is a flat.

However, the repayments only make sense if the DH is, in fact, paying the entire mortgage at just over 4% interest. OP hasn't responded yet. I'm hoping she will

Remortgaged when OP's hubby was put on the joint tenancy, presumably.

There must be a reason why this arrangement was set up. Fil would get a longer term mortgage, lower monthly outgoings, if 2 of his children were 'buying' the flat with him. Perhaps DH and DSis were better placed financially? Was he hoping to avoid IHT with the joint tenants instead of tenants in common choice? Or he just thought it would be simpler? But he made it clear to all his children that the proceeds of the property were to be shared between the five of them on his death and he trusted DH and DSis to do what he wanted.

Perhaps he couldn't make a will because it all sounds a bit dodgy written down?

We have struggled to pay our bills our mortgage

This really stood out to me from your OP, you're struggling to pay your mortgage but are throwing £1100 a month into a house that you seemingly have no benefits from. It's a crazy amount of money given your circumstances, and DH should be trying to negotiate a sale with his sister.

@shpoot the mortgage is 1100 per month DH and sis pay half.

The unemployed brother pays nothing. Lives rent free

The two other siblings live in their own bubble and haven't offered to help as they "haven't got the money" and "wish they could help but they can't" but "can't wait for their cut"

It wasn't a clever reason why the house was set up as JT perhaps because the other two didn't pay a deposit so there was no point them having definitive shares.

DH saw this coming years before and tried to get his father to severe the JT so that he could will it and there would not be this issue but it fell on deaf ears.

Same thing when he tried to get his sister to sell. Deaf ears. As a pp said why would she want to sell she is getting a great bargain.

We are not rich so even half of 1100 is a strain on us. The brother who lives their rent free says it's not his fault his father passed away or that his father never sorted out his affairs. He was looking for a job before his dad died and is still "Looking for a job now"

Maybe it's not right that DH and sis take a third each and them split the last third as it's only been two years. But there has to be a way of making am example of a) the non rent paying brother and b) the two other siblings who are just watching and waiting for their inheritance pay day..

But there has to be a way of making am example of a) the non rent paying brother and b) the two other siblings who are just watching and waiting for their inheritance pay day

There is, if DH/DSIS want to take it ... just point out that the house now belongs to them and so do the proceeds from it. Come to think of it, do the "non-owning 3" actually know about the ownership status, or have they simply assumed they'd be entitled to a share?

Nothing will be resolved unless DSIS agrees to sell, though. You said the family are selfish, so I'm wondering if she'll just sit tight and wait for you to run out of the money you'd need to press your case legally?

If that happens, DH really might need to go with the PP's suggestion to stop paying the mortgage share, then wait for them to be evicted and the house sold

DH really might need to go with the PP's suggestion to stop paying the mortgage share, then wait for them to be evicted and the house sold

He might not need to go this far, but he needs to declare it as his intention. If the DS has any sense she will realise she has more to lose by resisting the sale than agreeing to it.

Yes, think it's time to tell sister that if the house doesn't go up for sale he will just stop paying as it's unsustainable to pay two mortgages and he'd rather have the house he doesn't live in repossessed than the one he does. That should make her think.

Really appreciate your help guys. X

Dh and sister should get urgent legal advice from a good solicitor. They may have cover for initial advice from house insurance, yours or theirs, or union membership. Or which magazine may help. Then they can decide how to proceed.
The father could have organised tenants in common and left his share to whoever he wanted but has not done so. Did he leave other assets?
The mortgage will have to be paid before anyone gets anything. Please get professional advice.

There is no arguing with, "I'm not paying anymore" , & killing himself trying to, must say it has to be sold or it will be repossessed, because
going to work to allow DSis to live in comfort, & Bro to live for free, whilst you are struggling to live & foregoing holiday with your children... is madness.
If sis refuses, what is the liklihood she will take over whole mortgage, (whats the betting she instantly charges DB rent)
meanwhile, can you shop around for a cheaper mortgage deal ?

She could buy him out, keep the house and have lodgers, or it could be rented and she buy somewhere smaller. They could sever joint tenancy and go tenants in common. The brother can't pay so needs to move where he can get housing benefit! Lots of possibilities but someone needs to make a move of some sort. Get the paperwork, talk to mortgage company. This is not a probate issue but someone must have administrated dad's estate? You will need conveyancing solicitor for house issues.

OP, they very first thing your DH must do immediately is to sever the joint tenancy. Read this article which explains how easy this is to do.

www.braybray.co.uk/8-faqs-on-severing-a-joint-tenancy/

This means that should your DH pass away before the house is sold, his share will form part of his estate rather than just going to the other tennant, i.e. His sister. It's easy to do and costs a couple of hundred £s.

Your DH should contact the mortgage company to find out the outstanding balance so he can calculate the equity in the house. He should get legal advice on forcing the sale of the property. It won't be cheap to do, but if his sister does not comply she could end up having to pay his costs if the court feels she is being unreasonable. Yes, your DH may have been paying half the mortgage for a couple of years, but he's not contributed anything else so any money he gets back above this should be seen as a bonus. The costs of forcing the sale can be met from any profit made when the house sells. Your sister will also face court costs should she dispute the sale, so this needs to be pointed out to her.
Once the house is sold, any equity will be split between your DH and his sister. That cannot be changed. What they decide to do with their share is up to them. Your DH will have to pay capital gains tax. That's because the house is not his main residence. This could be quite a considerable sum, depending on the amount of equity. CGT is 18%, but the profit he gains will also impact on his income tax and push him int a higher tax bracket. Don't forget his sister will have to use her share to buy herself another property to live in.
Your DH needs to put aside the thoughts of splitting anything with other siblings, the house needs to be sold, all tax etc paid, and then he can decide what to do with any profit he may have left.
Remember, apart from the cost of the mortgage over the past coup,e of years, this has not cost him anything so any money he gets from it should be seen as a bonus.

Finally, make sure he sorts out changing the joint tennancy to tenants in common ASAP!

The brother will be getting housing benefit surely? Where is that going?

It's not his fault his dad died but unfortunately he now has to pay if he wants to live there. Shit happens.

I'd tell the sister that can't pay anymore. 2 years and enough is enough.

The brother will be getting housing benefit surely?

You cannot claim HB if you landlord is a relative.

You cannot claim HB if you landlord is a relative

You can, actually, though it's true you have to prove the agreement's not what's known as a "contrived tenancy"

What really is nearly impossible is to claim HB where the "relative landlord" is actually living in the same property with you - as is the case here

I'm also a bit confused as to how the mortgage company are dealing with this - have they even been told the DF has died? Because there would have to have been a remortgage at that point (he can't still be on the mortgage if he is dead) and the DH would then have been able to say he didn't want to be part of it, plus from the sounds of it, he wouldn't pass the affordability test now anyway (I'm also confused how he got a mortgage for his family home when he already had this huge expensive mortgage in his name, but maybe that was before they changed the criteria towards affordability).

Maybe if this was not dealt with then a quick call to the mortgage co to tell them DF died would force the issue that way and DH wouldn't look like the bad guy?

Was probate even granted? (It isn't needed in every case, so it might not have been done).
Btw, if you die without a will you don't have executors as these are nominated in the will, you have administrators appointed by the court - so who were these?

It sounds an awful mess, OP.

Was the property even declared as part of FIL’s estate?

I’d say your DH needs to get together all the paperwork he can and get some legal advice ASAP. It’s very important he does this independently of his DS, her interests and his are not the same and in fact are in conflict.

Was the property even declared as part of FIL’s estate?

The property wasn't part of the estate.

No that’s right it wasn’t, I think I was getting confused with the mortgage, and what happened to that when FIL died.

Nope! 50/50 split between your DH and his sister. That’s how the ownership has been set up. End of story.

Thinker, I have been in unfair financial situations with my family in law with my dh having to take on extra work to sub lazy bil (family business). I disagree that you need to keep out of it as it is affecting the quality of the life you share with your dh. I don’t think you should talk to the siblings directly but should definitely make your feelings and suggestions known to your dh. Our situation took a huge toll on our marriage and has only recovered now that dbil is out of the company and his df has sort of retired (no longer working but still talking money).

I agree with those who say that your dh should tell his dsis that they need to sell asap as he can no longer afford to pay the mortgage. You could say that he is relying on overtime to pay it but that the overtime has been cut.

I haven’t read all the posts OP
My take would be : your OH and his sister definitely get the amount they paid in reimbursed but I also think they should be entitled to more of the money from the amount the house has increased in value during their time of helping. Without their help the house wouldn’t have gained this value.

Was there a reason your deceased FIL put the house in their names and not all the siblings on the mortgage? If they have helped with previous payment I think this too should be given back to them. It’s in no way fair to split 5 ways when 2 have paid into the property.

And it is your right to be interested OP, it’s your DH whose covering the mortgage payment which obviously affects your joint income for your own family

This is not difficult at all if you are willing to be fair. DFiL wanted house split equally.
His house between his 5 offspring.
Sell house, your DH and DSiL who have contributed to mortgage take what they have paid back out, plus a little interest at bank rate you would have got had it been in your account. Split the remainder between all 5.
Whether you think knX is more deserving than Y is not the point, he wanted it split. And why on earth would 5 adult children not sit him down and sort a will!
It is easy to split and that was the fathers intention as you state. Legally your DH and DSiL could keep it all if it's in their names but this would be morally wrong and would quite rightly cause problems between the siblings.