So much negativity about brexit....

[newmun]

Is anyone looking forward to it? Did anyone who vote leave happy they voted it? Or regretful?

itinerary
and likewise we will only import goods which meet British safety standards.
Ah yes
Rees Mogg wants to drop the UK's air quality standards to those of India
"to make us more competitive"
the Brexiteers want a low red tape low cost economy
that does not involve red tape standards

"the UK has, throughout the years, behaved like a rebellious child towards the EU, rather than engaging in leading it."

This is another objectionable aspect of the EU. It behaves not as a neutral facilitator of equals, but as a finger-wagging "parental" figure. We have the right to leave peacefully without being reprimanded for disobedience!

What exactly is "rebellious" about putting forward alternative ideas and expecting a reasonable debate? Why should we acquiesce like good little Europhiles?

Remainers often say Britain should stay and engage, but we've had decades to do that and it hasn't worked.

@Itinerary we did. All the time. Sometimes we got our way. Sometimes we didn't. That's what compromises are all about. We kept out of the Eurozone. We kept out of Schengen. We got unfettered access to the largest trading bloc in the world.

Remainers often say Britain should stay and engage, but we've had decades to do that and it hasn't worked.
Yeah right.
The UK has MASSIVELY influenced the EU's policies over the years
FFS the single market was Maggie's idea

For all those saying you are ashamed of your country, please don't be. Let's remember that many people didn't vote and if they didn't it's because they were much more likely to be fine with the status quo. I'm affected personslly by Brexit as despite having lived here for 23 years with British grandparents, I'm not British. I however still feel as welcome now as I felt 23 years ago. I don't consider that it is the country who is pushing Brexit but idiot politicians and the idiots who think the media is the new Bible.

Anarchists will be the only ones who will love Brexit.
'London is Burning' will be a number one hit.

And the zombie plagues will come true...

This is another objectionable aspect of the EU. It behaves not as a neutral facilitator of equals, but as a finger-wagging "parental" figure.

I disagree.
It's an issue with the UK behaviour, not the EU. The UK has chosen not to act as an equal partner, but as a child.

What exactly is "rebellious" about putting forward alternative ideas and expecting a reasonable debate?

What alternative ideas were these? All I have seen throughout the last decades was "we don't want this and that".
Which is fine, stay out of the Euro and of Schengen, but the general attitude in the UK (by inhabitants and politicians) is to view the EU as a remote overseeing entity, rather than something that the UK is(was) part of and taking responsibility for however it evolved and what came out of it. Being part of the EU involves leading, proposing, compromising, making deals.

Clairaloulou well said on this thread and sorry to see you go.

@Ta1kinpeace

The Plan involves electing MEPs who actively engage and help to shape the EU to make it work better for Britain.
Their remit is EU first, Britain second, so it's just an extra level of bureaucracy and a massive waste of money.

The Plan involves electing UK MPs who listen to the electorate and work to support the regions and the left behind
Yes, all good, but we can do that without the EU. When we leave, there will still be many of us who want to see this happen and I think our efforts are best concentrated here.

The Plan involves engaging with the world through a massive trading bloc to make the world a better place
I really don't think it makes the world a better place. More centralisation and uniformity between what were diverse nations is a grey, non-creative future.

Brexit involves sitting in the road outside the party blowing raspberries
Brexit is about throwing your own party on your own terms, and changing any aspect of it you don't like at any time. It is normal for countries to be independent, there isn't anything wrong with it!

The EU is turgid and dated in its approach. It isn't somehow better or more forward-looking than individual countries just because it only came into existence recently.

If all immigrants have to be high skilled then the crap jobs will ALL go to Brits

So you think having a lower-skilled job is having a "crap job"?

Why shouldn't the lower-skilled work all be done by British people? (And yes, I've done a few lower-skilled jobs in my time). Taking pride in your work and earning an honest living isn't "crap".

We all know of employers that pay tiny wages and offer poor conditions, which British workers cannot live on, so the jobs go to migrants who accept what is worth 10 times more in their home country, despite the exploitation. If wages were no longer artificially decreased by this EU-caused "supply and demand" then lower-skilled work would need to be properly paid, respected and thus far more attractive to British workers.

Free movement was never going to work with such a large wealth gap between the richest and poorest countries. Of course, an independent post-Brexit Britain can still choose to help its neighbours, trade amicably etc. and without the EU we can tailor this as appropriate.

@Itinerary - but if we No Deal how do we get to your sunlit uplands.

How is another level of democracy classed as bureaucracy?

Anything to do with the EU is immediately classed as bureaucracy.

A functioning parliament is not bureaucracy.

And what is wrong with looking at the best interests of Europe. The U.K. government represents the U.K.. The EU looking after EU wide interests has helped the U.K..

Controversially forcing the U.K. to use the metric system is a massive benefit. We kicked and screamed and whined but were dragged into the 19th century. Metric soooooo much easier to use, world wide usage in science and industry, so much better educationally.

No NASA like imperial mishaps in the U.K. !

Is it me, or do not most Brexiter arguments reinforce arguments for independence for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales?

Well stated Itinerary - I'm not sure how that gets equated to "sunlit uplands" but the brightness is probably coming from the flamethrowers that will now flame you... and "fire"....

It's you Lweji, can't say I've noticed that.

itinerary
If wages were no longer artificially decreased by this EU-caused "supply and demand" then lower-skilled work would need to be properly paid, respected and thus far more attractive to British workers.
So wages for care workers will have to go up 25%
PAID FOR HOW?
So wages for veg pickers will go up 30%
which will increase the price of food in the shops
So wages for hospital support staff will go up 20%
PAID FOR HOW?

and bearing in mind that unemployment is low in the UK because the native birth rate has been below replacement for decades
who are the Brits who will take these jobs?

Re: safety standards and workers' rights, how then did we manage all these before the EU? Just a few examples:

Factory Act 1802, for the welfare of workers in cotton mills, other mills and factories

1833 HM Factory Inspectorate formed, initially to prevent injury and overworking in child textile workers. Despite fierce opposition from some politicians and employers, it expanded to cover most workplaces over the next few decades.

Factory and Workshop Act 1878, consolidating a lot of previous legislation

Threshing Machines Act 1878
First legislative moves towards safety in agriculture

Employers’ Liability Act 1880

Workman’s Compensation Act 1897

1923 National “Safety First” Association formed, with the London Safety First Council and BISFA affiliated to it

Employment of Women and Young Persons Act 1936

1956 Legal reforms require equal pay for women teachers and civil servants

Agriculture (Safety, Health and Welfare Provisions) Act 1956

Offices Act 1960

1970 The Equal Pay Act

HateIsNotGood

You know...
extra parliament
not representing original country
extra bureaucracy
someone else being in charge
being forced to accept laws (or referendum) from a central government

The UK led the world
And then it stalled utterly around the time that Maggie and Ron fell under the influence of the NeoCons
the bonfire of regulations has been Tory policy for the last 30 years

the red tape that folks like Rees Mogg want rid of is

• employment protection
• environmental protection
• food safety
• product safety

Dominic Raab's book laid the plan bare

Claraloulou I voted leave but didn't vote for this

I'm expecting to see an awful lot more of this pathetic whining over the next months/years.

Claralou: this is exactly what you voted for when you went and stuck your cross in that box. You voted for an unknown quantity. No point moaning about it now. You won. Get over it. And if things don't match your personal vision of Brexit, you only have yourself to blame. Thanks for dragging the rest of us down with you.

Glad you mentioned the Equal Pay Act - it was partly prompted by entry to the EEC, which required ‘each Member State shall ensure that the principle of equal pay for male and female workers for equal work or work of equal value is applied’.

Mind you, it took a 1982 judgement by the ECJ for the UK to amend the Equal Pay Act in 1983 in order to incorporate the concept of equal value into UK law.

yeah, its just all Project Fear, repeat, repeat ad nauseum. Very weird. My heart sinks when I see Matthew Parris in the Times rambling on about it again.

Meanwhile ... Julie Burchill wrote a fantastic, upbeat, rebellious piece in the Telegraph a month or so ago, welcoming Brexit! Freedom!

Freedom from what?

Freedom from what?
I'd hazard a guess from the EU.