AIBU to think that other than some people being upset or angry, there are no downsides for the UK if Brexit doesn't happen ?

[frumpety]

I can't think of any downsides to the UK not brexiting other than some of the population being upset for a bit. Can anyone else ?

Buteo That's all right then, both are in the wrong, one more than the other, I robbed £1000 from a bank you've only robbed £100, Both robbed a bank

It's not the same thing at all.

Remain campaigns fined for irregularities of around £110,000 but no criminal acts.

Leave campaigns fined for irregularities of £8,000,000 and currently under investigation for criminal acts to the body that investigates serious and organised crime.

And I haven't included the £400,000 or so bunged to the DUP, most of which was spend in London, which last time I looked wasn't a hotbed of DUP voters?

Moussemoose I am not complaining about parliament carrying out the ref vote, it seems you and many other people that want parliament to not uphold the result

Buteo Be careful. under investigation for criminal acts, I thought in this country we are innocent until proven guilty

MonkeysMummy17 why do you think people were manipulated in to voting, most people already had firm views, not everybody is taken in by what they read or hear in the newspapers or tv, radio

So we’re all agreed to resign this to the distant parts of our memory usually reserved for embarrassing drunken escapades and carry on before the whole brexshit debacle??

....yayyyyyyyyy!
Someone text Mrs May and let her know her services are no longer required!!

Moussemoose If the EU is all elected, can you please tell me when I can vote out Junkers, Verhofstadt, Barnier, etc, Oh wait I cant

How about...rather than point out the damage it could do to democracy we term the problem

“The perception that we are no longer a democratic nation”

It’s not necessarily about the letter of the law, it’s that people were given a vote, they were lead to believe they were entitled to this vote and that it would bind the country to a course. How do you explain to people after the fact that it’s not a legal vote, or it doesn’t really matter what you said you wanted.

You can’t give people two options if only one option is acceptable. That damages the perception of democracy, and makes people feel unsafe.

@Hesta54 because they are civil servants!

Can you vote out Mark Sedwill - no you can't because he is a civil servant.

Each time you post you demonstrate your total lack of understanding.

Parliament is entitled to make whatever decision it likes in relation to the referendum result, uphold it or ask for another referendum. That is my point. Either decision is legal.

@EcoCalc
We can not, just can not start making decisions based on people's 'perceptions' this thread has just demonstrated how profoundly ignorant many members of the U.K. public are in relation to our democracy processes.

Hesta54 it's not a case of being careful - it's a case of stating the facts published by the Electoral Commission and the NCA:

Electoral Commission:

Following its investigation, the Commission has reasonable grounds to suspect that:

A number of criminal offences may have been committed.

Due to multiple suspected offences, some of which fall outside the Commission’s remit, the Commission has referred this matter and handed its evidence to the National Crime Agency.

NCA:

NCA initiates investigation following Electoral Commission referral

The NCA has initiated an investigation concerning the entities Better for the Country (BFTC) and Leave.EU; as well as Arron Banks, Elizabeth Bilney and other individuals. This follows our acceptance of a referral of material from the Electoral Commission.

Our investigation relates to suspected electoral law offences covered by that referral, as well as any associated offences.

While electoral law offences would not routinely fall within the NCA’s remit, the nature of the necessary inquiries and the potential for offences to have been committed other than under electoral law lead us to consider an NCA investigation appropriate in this instance.

Where have I said anything other than "being under investigation for criminal acts"?

Moussemoose I don't remember MS be elected on a term bases or being called the President of the civil service

Buteo But not as yet found guilty

@Hesta54
If the EU is all elected, can you please tell me when I can vote out Junkers, Verhofstadt, Barnier, etc
How do we vote out Olly Robbins or John Manzoni or Tom Scholar?

As the folks you have named are Civil Servants who are not elected in the UK or the EU

Hesta You can keep saying “innocent until proven guilty” but the fact remains that the Electoral Commission believed it had sufficient evidence for the further investigation of a number criminal acts undertaken by the Leave campaign and the NCA is currently investigating.

I don’t recall any of the Remain campaign being referred to the NCA and so your comparison of Leave and Remain campaign wrongdoings being equivalent are not valid.

I don’t think you can ignore public perception. No one said we can’t make decisions, the question was whether there was a downside to no brexit, for me, a downside would be that people would feel like that were no longer living in a democratic state.

I think EcoCalc's post is the Brexit problem encapsulated: 'people would feel like that were no longer living in a democratic state.'

It's all about feelings and misperceptions.
Hard to blame members of the public when the government's own white paper on the subject said (I paraphrase slightly; forgive me) 'we have always had sovereignty but the public don't always feel that we do.'

I don’t think you can ignore public perception

I completely agree

So the public should be better educated, personally i would make politics and law a compulsory lesson...ds1 did citizenship which i think may also have included ethics...but i might have that bit wrong

Spot on post from eco the more i think about it

But does the need to perpetuate the fact that fundamentally the public perception is erroneous outweigh the considerable economic risks .

The brexiteers are fond of quoting WW2 however in 1939 public option was heavily in favour of appeasement .Should we have appeased Hitler because of people’s perceptions? It was because Parliament was able to lead without being bound by public opinion that we have the freedoms we have today.

Well, I suppose a no-deal Brexit would be one way of resetting public perceptions.

I'm glad I won't be around to share the experience of having my perceptions reset.

I'm sorry, but anyone who says that they cannot see any downsides in staying, and believes that we can just go back on exactly the same terms as 26 June 2016 is displaying an complete and utter ignorance of the issues involved.

The papers this week are full of what a complete and utter disaster the Euro has been, the Italian economy has not grown at all in the twenty years since it joined, Greece has been in a depression deeper and longer than the great American depression of the 1930s, unemploy ment, especially among younger people, is far too high.

The cost of keeping the Euro going will just get larger and harder to pay, and Britain will be dragged into helping bail it out if we do not leave now.

@TonTonMacoute - we are not in the Eurozone.

Yes we lose face and look rather silly but I don't think we're nearly as important or interesting to other countries as people think we are and will be yesterday's news very quickly.

I totally agree

How can we defend democracy by upholding the results of an election that would have been illegal because people 'believe' we should?

That is this total opposite of democracy- in any of its iterations.

I perceive this to be the case so we should follow it through even though it was actually illegal.

Think about that. Condoning electoral fraud based on an incorrect 'perception'.

Should we award exams to pupils we think should do well?

I think where some of the arguments about the government being fettered by public opinion/perception fall down now is that no one made them offer a vote. If we want to argue legalities they weren’t legally obliged to hold the reffferendum. That was a choice our government made. I think it’s damaging to then turn round and say the general public are too stupid, or too racist, or too ill informed to make this decision. We’re not more stupid or ill informed now than we were then.

I didn’t ask to be asked about brexit. I’m vaguely educated and I don’t think I was at all qualified to offer an opinion. I voted to remain because I was worried we didn’t have a plan for leaving, I didn’t even get as far as the pros or cons of either option, I just thought we weren’t equipped to make any decision on It.

As it stands though, I genuinely believe it is impossible for a back down at this point which doesn’t scream dictatorship. I am again talking about public perception. It’s iust how the majority of leavers may feel.

I just think its a mistake to do anything based on the publics perception