that it has just hit me that this time next year I wont be an EU citizen

[garethsouthgatesmrs]

I know it's yet another brexit thread but it genuinely just hit me that it's actually happening THIS YEAR! I am truly gutted. Would love someone with political knowledge to come on and reassure me that it actually won't be that bad. I have 3 children who have to live with the repercussions.

buble is on jules holland-this has to be a good sign

@MrsAriadneOliver, I'm not sure where you get the idea that tariffs on food would be lower from? I've just done a quick google, and from a House of Lords report (Brexit: food prices and availability) found this:

"If an agreement cannot be negotiated [with the EU], Brexit is likely to result in an average tariff on food imports of 22%. While this would not equate to a 22% increase in food prices for consumers, there can be no doubt that prices paid at the checkout would rise. To counteract this the Government could cut tariffs on all food
imports, EU and non-EU, but this would pose a serious risk of undermining UK food producers who could not compete on price."

i.e. if we cut tariffs, under WTO MFN rules, we'd have to cut them for everyone, and then you're saying goodbye to a lot of home production who won't be able to compete (think Tate & Lyle sugar vs British Sugar - guess which one David Davis used to work for...)

To be fair we're not being given much to engage with

That’s no justification for it!

I’m sick of this whole Brexit mess. And I say this as someone who voted Remain - but these nasty, vitriolic, unsubstantiated accusations are what has led to this mess.

Remainers and Leavers, on the whole, are unable to have a decent conversation, because as soon as someone admits to having voted Leave, they’re told they are ignorant, stupid, racist, bigoted, xenophobic and uneducated. The list is endless.

Don’t Remainers see? People won’t engage with you if you insult people in that way! They’ll just ignore you, and become even more entrenched in their beliefs. Politics can be argued and debated. Once the personal attacks start, its over. Your opinions are easily dismissed, because you consider nasty, personal attacks a valid playing card. And they’re not.

Everyone who behaves this way, and persists in believing it to be true of all Leave voters - that they’re racist/xenophobic/ whatever - you’re shooting yourselves in the foot. Minds won’t be changed. People will ignore you. And they’ll still want to Leave. Because you’re everything you accuse Leave voters of being. Hostile, angry and bigoted.

We won’t get anywhere this way. And what’s the bloody point in moaning now? It’s two years down the line - we’re leaving - why not show some solidarity? And resolve to make the best of the situation we find ourselves in?

MrsAriadne
Nice post but you are actively ignoring even the simple and polite questions being put to you

THe big problem with Brexit is that its supporters have still not said what they want from it
so they are likely to be unhappy with the outcome

Because we don't want to, because there is STILL NO PLAN with 3 months to go, and 'the best of the situation' might be choosing whether to die of starvation, diabetes, or cholera! Perhaps solidarity in this situation is defined by trying to get this overturned?
I agree about the calling of names on principle though.

I actually think you can probably take this mess back to the first time Patrick Minford had a significant role to play in setting the economic direction of this country.

@Ta1kinPeace
I’m not ignoring them.

As I said, I was trying to give you reasons that were given to me for leaving. There’s so much complaining about Leavers being unable to list reasons - I’m just trying to put the case from the other side.

I didn’t vote to Leave, so I don’t disagree with you! But at least I’m trying to see it from both sides.

🙄

*@MrsAriadneOliver *
We won’t get anywhere this way. And what’s the bloody point in moaning now? It’s two years down the line - we’re leaving - why not show some solidarity? And resolve to make the best of the situation we find ourselves in?

The continued arguments are born out of frustration, 2 years of frustration when the whole country has been lied too, the prospect of all of us being poorer, including those that can't afford to be, and no reasonable argument of why this is going to be a good thing. Is it not understandable that people prejudice their responses when all of the evidence leads in that direction?

The big problem with Brexit is that its supporters have still not said what they want from it

Maybe they just don’t know? But they’re willing to take a gamble, because they don’t like where the UK has headed while a part of the EU?

Is it not understandable that people prejudice their responses when all of the evidence leads in that direction?

No, it’s not understandable that someone instantly labels a Leave voter a racist.

Thank you for playing devil's advocate :) It seems all the actual leavers have disappeared from the thread...

I can't get behind leaving in the manner we're doing because I think it's fundamentally the wrong choice for the nation. I could have lived with a soft Brexit - staying in the single market - but May has chosen a different path and I think it will be disastrous. And disastrous whether or not we leave under the withdrawal agreement - in that case, it will just be a longer, slower decline, but still disastrous. Why should I accept that?

Leavers don't engage. Cos they can't be arsed.

For a million and one reasons.

"No, it’s not understandable that someone instantly labels a Leave voter a racist."

No, I agree. Unfortunately for the non-racist Leave voters however, they're in the same bed as someone who voted for Brexit because they believed Nigel Farage when he stood in front of that breaking point poster.

I think that's the problem - the increase in inequality in Britain since the 1980s. But I put that down to home politics, UK class snobbery and gentrification and middle class bubbles, not the EU. Other EU countries are not so unequal. Does that not of itself show that it's a British choice, not an EU choice?

I’m embarrassed that a high proportion of my family voted Leave, including my own father! Their motives were purely emotional and based on zero fact and blatant xenophobia:

“We won, no more Frenchies telling us what to do”
“Well, all the money will be going on the NHS now”
“There are too many foreign lorries clogging up the roads”
“Out means out”
“No more foreigners coming over here and claiming our benefits”
“I just voted the same as your dad”
And on and on...

These same people are mostly blue collar workers, heavily reliant on the state and worryingly have zero fallback plans or financial buffers if they lose their jobs. Without doubt, they will be the worst impacted in society when prices rise and basic services falter! I have no political motive in saying this...I genuinely don’t understand how they will personally benefit from their “win”. And bizarrely they seem to take a lot of pride in the “we won” comments.

I’m glad that DH and I have options to relocate overseas if need be.

A survey taken after the ref examined the reasons people gave for why they voted to leave. When it was broken down into specific issues less than 10% based their vote on things the EU actually does. The other 90% were about issues which are controlled by national or local politics.

The EU was blamed for all the shit that politicians in the UK have always been responsible for.

Haven't got a link to that survey and breakdown have you Red? I'd be interested in having my anecdotal observations confirmed.

All this fuss over an average cost of EU membership of £29 per person per year.

Included health insurance for travelling in any EU country and a fast track queue at the airport. Paid for by the state, not even by individual travellers! What a deal!

@MaterEstIratus he can study elsewhere (I'm sure provision would be put in place though to keep up the scheme or similar). I studied in Asia for a semester as it was cheaper than doing it in Europe!

@SusanWalker I hope you get to travel a bit at some stage.

Thanks Apileofballyhoo. I love travelling and Europe is my favourite destination as there is so much to see and so much variety. I have a lottery win dream of travelling along the North Mediterranean coast from Turkey to Portugal. It's nice to have dreams!

Most people in the UK were never asked if they wanted to be an EU citizen, it was pretty much forced upon us. So to go back to being just a 'Great' British citizen is something to look forward to.

A warning to any future governments, don't force us into things, without permission.

In fact EU membership costs on average, 8p a day.

What is it you object to about being an EU citizen, Walkingdead?

Britain is a post industrial society ... We don’t make stuff any more

Actually, we do.

Manufacturing accounts for 45% of the UK’s exports (£275 billion) and the UK is the 9th largest manufacturing nation by output in the world.

More than half of those exports go to the EU.

Who knew.