Grammar schools - which dc to prioritise?

[sylviavana]

We have a dd aged 9 in Year 5 and a ds aged 8 in Year 4.

Dd is extremely clever, and has always been top of her class. Ds is a lovely, kind boy but he’s never been a high achiever at school, even though he tries very hard.

We currently live in a grammar school area. As things stand, dd will be sitting the 11+ next year and is pretty much guaranteed to get into a great girls’ grammar school where I know she’ll thrive. She often gets frustrated at school when the teacher has to slow down to help other children - I think a selective environment would suit her perfectly, and I think she’d love being at a girls’ school, as she frequently gets annoyed by the boys in her class who mess around.

However, ds will almost certainly not get into the local boys’ grammar school, and the non-grammar options in our catchment area are not good. They have a reputation for very bad behaviour and low attendance, don’t get good results, and all have pretty crap facilities and buildings compared to the girls’ grammar that dd will be going to.

I’m so worried that this will cause ds to resent dd - that she has so much better a school experience. I’m also worried that it will crush him to see some of his friends joining dd at the girls’ school or going to the boys’ grammar school, when he has next to no chance of getting in no matter how hard he works.

All this is leading Dh and I to wonder if we need to bite the bullet and move as quickly as possible to a comprehensive area, to be ready to apply for secondary schools for dd this time next year. On the one hand it would be lovely for dd and ds to go to the same school and have a shared school experience, and for ds not to feel ‘less than’ but I worry that I would be robbing dd of an amazing grammar school experience. She has never quite fitted in at primary school, and I think she’d do well in an environment where being clever wasn’t seen as ‘uncool’. On the other hand, I’ve heard that comprehensive schools stream in almost all subjects now, so maybe her classes wouldn’t be that different to a grammar school?

Sorry for rambling! Can I ask what you would do in this situation? Which dc’s education would you prioritise?

Just a bit of terminology clarification:

• The 'comp' the OP is referring to is a secondary modern (the 'other' schools in a wholly selective county are all almost all secondary moderns - religious schools and some isolated non-grammars may be the exceptions - being affected so much by the fact that the grammar schools remove their top sets.

• IME, very few 'true' comprehensives stream. The vast majority set - ie they place their pupils in ability-based groups for some subjects, based on their performance in that subject. So a child can be top set Maths, lower set English, 2nd set Science, for example. I don't know of any which set for ALL subjects - so e.g. Art, DT, Drama tend to be mixed ability all through the school, and at GCSE many 'option' subjects will be unset simply due to numbers and to allow flexibility. DD, for example, is in a DT group where predicted grades range from 2-9 (as the 9, her work is entirely unaffected by the presence of those with lower targets).

I live in an area where there are many excellent state primary schools but at secondary level the few good to outstanding state schools are massively oversubscribed with small catchment areas or operate a lottery system, so many parents feel that they have to go private. Some of these families already live in the most affluent parts of the city so it isn’t even that they can’t afford to move into catchment; the few homes that become available are snapped up immediately.

I would get both children assessed by an 11+ tutor who would be able to advise whether your dd would definitely get in and whether your ds stood a chance with tutoring. I always tell parents if I think that it is inappropriate for a particular child due to a general lack of ability and / or, more importantly, poor attitude.

A good tutor can also screen for and address any underlying additional needs such as dyslexia and dyscalculia which could be hindering the child’s attainment at their current school and, if this is officially diagnosed and taken into account through access arrangements for exams, this can level the playing field allowing the child to flourish and reach their full potential.

It isn’t necessarily the case that a child who has a lot of tutoring ‘bombs’ when they start at the grammar / independent school, as part of the process of preparation is learning how to to learn and gaining the self-confidence, study skills and work ethic to succeed in an academic environment. An upper-average child who is engaged in their learning can do better than a very bright child who is lazy.

When my older brother and I went to secondary school, he went to the all boys' grammar school and I went to the local comprehensive school. We were equally as clever as each other and both did equally as well in our GCSEs. My younger brother went to the same school as my older brother, but once the older brother had already left, and he didn't do nearly as well as the both of us.

So none of us had the experience of attending school with the others and it made no difference at all. We also achieved what we were capable of, despite the school that I went to being a poorer school. You get out of education what you put in.

In your shoes, I'd send DD to the grammar school and DS to whichever school he gets in to.

orchid

I know the mind boggles. Where do the kids of different abilities mingle! It's segregation within same building.

You have to make the best decision you can for each child. At this point you have to decide what is best for DD now. It's not fair to make that decision based on what if DS is resentful.

Surely, denying DD the grammar school opportunity now could make her resentful that she had to go to a comp because DS isn't as academic and it would be unfair.

The time to make the best decision for DS is when he is old enough to go to secondary. Between now and then, anything could happen, you or DH change jobs and have to move, DD doesn't actually pass 11+(there are no certainties), local comps significantly improve, grammar school starts failing...

We were very happy with DD1s comp so DD2 went. Within a year the school had a change of head became an academy and it fell apart.

Zevite I guess you could say that, but it was only for 6 months with her dad, not the 2 years I am hearing on here . If a child needs 2 years of tuition to pass the 11+ is Grammar school right for them!

The two factors that I have found most determinant of success for very able pupils (and others most probably) is good quality teaching, that is not just good knowledge of their subject but what students need to know in order to do well at GCSEs. This comes from teachers who care not just to teach but to see their pupils succeed and good support for training and learning from the school.

The other factor is a a hool that encourage good relationship between teachers and parents. When DD started, they assessed she was doing well getting Bs. I had to explain to the teachers that this wasn't a good result for DD who was aminig for Medical school and eho therefore needed to work towards As. After I met her teachers, dis ussed her strengths and weaknesses and agree on the best way to support her, I found the teachers and school overall very dedicated to supporting her on an individual basis despite quite large number of pupils in their class.

It was not intensive like I hear some parents, but a bit at the weekend or in the holidays type thing, not every night.

It’s not about prioritising, it is about managing expectations and doing the best for both children. If your son will not do well academically then encouraging him in his non academic skills is what you should be doing. You seem to have fallen in to the trap of assuming DD is better because she is academic. Everyone has their goals in life and just because his might be non academic doesn’t make him less.

Certainly you should never consider giving your DD a lesser education to spare his feelings. That would be a ridiculous thing to do.

We went through exactly the same but with DT's. DT1 would've had a good chance of getting into the grammar, DT2 not an option. We also dithered about private, but my heart wasn't in it.
We moved 4m and they both went to the local comp and absolutely thrived, both at great Unis now.

I'm a massive believer in Comprehensive schools, but of course we're lucky to have moved into the catchment of a good one.

I know what setting is, and that's what I had at school.

My dd is in a streamed school with two main streams: academic and not quite as academic (they are called different names, I can't remember what). This includes pretty much all subjects, although there is a bit of setting within those streams. You could be in set 1 of the higher stream for Maths, and set 2 for English, but there are more or less no kids who cross streams and it isn't set up for that.

I also know other comps with a 'grammar stream'.

I'm sure lots 'set' but this segregation isn't unusual, and I also know people who went to schools like this.

In my dd's school, they mix together at form tutor periods and PE and not much else. Her friends are the same academically oriented friends she had in primary.

I went to a mixed comp which was hell til the sets kicked in at GCSE level, so I'm not against setting or streaming, I'm just saying it's surprising how segregated SOME comps are.

furrycushion about bursuries in state schools - look up Kingsdale School in South London and Norwood School in South London. Both state schools. Both offer a bursery to children who have a specific skill (eg music) and this bursery pays for extra lessons and trips and things. A child can get a place via a bursery but lives miles away across the other side of london. This means less places avalible for children who actually live across the road from the school.

Bookmum: they call it a scholarship.

All Kingsdale’s places are on Lottery, not just the music and sport places.

And the scholarships are on ‘aptitude’ not skill.

It is sad that people are tutoring average kids to go to Grammar school, when it was originally set up to give bright children of working class parents a chance.
I am new to the topic, but it seems that there is a constant disapproval on MN against tutoring. Why?
My eldest is in reception and he is tutored twice a week, as he has issues with concentrating in class (medical, but not SEN), and there are some academic areas where I simply cannot help him. It has been an incredible boost to him (not only academically, but also confidence wise) - he might have been "average" or even "delayed" when he started, but is now pushing "bright".

Orchid Any comp which rigorously streams and doesn't adjust those streams at least once during in y7 and end yearly in KS3 is, in my opinion, doing its children a massive, unnecessary, disservice.

I am new to the topic, but it seems that there is a constant disapproval on MN against tutoring. Why?

It’s a different form of tutoring. Tutoring alongside their education to assist where they have issues is one thing, tutoring for the 11+ is specifically coaching to pass a single exam on a single day.

JillScarlet yes I agree that some London parents have 'gone nuts' but it does seem the schools have too. If I lived a couple of miles down road my 'catchment' schools would be vertually all Harris Academy schools. These would not be good for my daughter (various sen/other issues). A new non Harris opened to give locals an alternitive however when I looked it up it has an overlly complicated uniform - even the shirts have to be ones with the school logo on the shirt collar and they made a big thing about how proud they are of it. That to me is 'nuts'. That isn't a priority to me (and many other parents). I want my daughter to go to secondary school and gain confidence, independence, be proud of who she is and most important happy and this would be a local school that is easy to get too and by being local it has good community links (and I know several other parents who feel the same). Sadly down here in SouthEast London state secondary schools like that are rare.

Teen it does adjust at the end of y7 although I don't think there was much shifting actually, which was surprising.

Surely though it's the existence of the streams that might make those in the lower/less academic stream feel really bad.

This is also the case with sets.

Putting everyone in together doesn't always right the issue of some children feeling more written off than others, that's all I'm trying to say. Or equally that children in a good secondary modern might feel equally as good about themselves as those in the lower sets at a comp. They might even feel better as they are not constantly competing against children who find studying very easy.

These things aren't as simple as: grammar and segregation by ability bad, comp 'all in together' good.

It's much more complex, as is social integration, and I think people worry too much about this stuff and not enough about things like high quality teaching/value added, good pastoral care (which can literally save a child with MH difficulties) and extracurricular (which is excellent at our local former 'sink' school).

Aero I hear what your saying but even 6 months is what many die hards would say is too much prep.

A good ability child, with 6 months prep, really working on nvr and any weak spots is going to be in a very good position next to the child who was truly given some past papers a week before.
Where does the the acceptable amount start or finish?

Personally I think all dc who want a shot at it should be given 6 months, I think that's all good ability dc need and if all dc had the same program of help that would properly sort out the strong all rounders.
But denying tutoring goes on etc or the test is non tutorable is nonsense

silver There isn't disapproval against tutoring per se.
But
Tutoring for grammar school is a big issue.

If the 'sharp elbowed middle classes' all tutor their mid-high DCs to get into grammar school, then potentially this means that the high-but-not-brilliant DC from poor homes who can't afford tutoring, or don't realise it is needed, miss out on grammar school places.

So grammar schools stop being a means of social gain and become another way the less well off are denied the best experiences.

You can tinker around the edges with admission criteria, eg allowing those on FSM to get in with lower scores (which the MC will HATE). But the bottom line is you are separating children at 10 based on a test that some will have been tutored for 18months+ and others will be turning up to blind.

Get your son a tutor

I also know other comps with a 'grammar stream'

Are these genuine true comprehensives in non-selective counties that do not border selectiove countiea?

Or are they the 'other' schools in selective counties - secondary moderns, not comprehensives - who are seeking to reassure parents (habituated to the segregated system) that they can get an 'almost grammar' experience within a secondary modern?

I can see why a secondary modern might try to mitigate some of the issues created by the segregated system [both for the school and for parents / children] by creating a 'stream called a grammar stream. I haven't come across that particular terminology in 'true' comprehensive areas?

Orchid
in DCs comp there were 5 sets per year group per subject area (two classes of each set)
Sets were shuffled every half term in years 7 and 8, and once in year 9

One of DDs friends went from set 5 to set 1 in 4 terms as he was a late developer

Streaming and segregating schools could never have given that kid that opportunity.
A comp was able to.

Orchid I agree, being in the lower stream of a comp would be disheartening.

Our comp currently has equal mixed ability halves for the first 3 years and then used to band upper and lower for the GCSE years for core subjects. However I believe it is thinking about staying roughly mixed ability halves even for GCSE due to the disheartening/negative effect.

Somehow set 4 in your half of the year sounds so much better than set 8 in the whole year.