The right reasons to have children?

[livupq]

If the world is as overpopulated as people say do you think you have to have more extrinsic reasons for having children? More and more jobs will be become automated and the jobs we need require more and more expertise and intelligence. On the parenting side it is increasingly important to have parents that value education and understand child development who can provide a loving and nurturing home to children. Having all these traits and the money and time to do that isn’t possible for everyone.

If you were not particularly special - not very pretty or intelligent or with special talents is there a reason to have children? Understandably most people want them but should we put that behind us as selfish desires? Naturally things won’t always go to plan and even if you are smart or pretty your children may not be. Even if you could support them and provide for them emotionally and physically you could lose your job... but that seems different than trying to do the right thing in the first place. Right now it feels like having children is the natural state no matter what your circumstances even though we are supposedly enlightened.

Just interested in others thoughts.

Spaghettijumper Would anything make you not want to bring a child into existence? What if someone could say (and I know they can’t just now) that they’d have a 95% chance of being unhappy or completely unable to cope in the world?

Silkei Just out of curiosity - what do you mean when you say she is good?

I think the fact that you can't know is key livupq. Bringing a child into an obviously dangerous situation is questionable - that said people have babies in war situations and droughts who go on to have good lives.

The situation in which I wouldn't have a child is if I couldn't give that child the care I wanted to give them. That said I may start out being able to give that care and then have a change of circumstances. Who can say?

Silkei Just out of curiosity - what do you mean when you say she is good?

Kind. Generous. Honest. Decent. Self sacrificing. Thoughtful. Caring. Supportive. Selfless. And all other good things. My mother is literally the best person I’ve ever met. She welcomes the children, the sick, the dying, gives her time and love, and asks nothing in return. I’m not even half as good as she is and neither is anyone else I’ve ever met. But like I said, she can’t write and can barely read. Intelligence is not everything.

MirriVan

You say your anti-natalism is rooted in utilitarianism, and predicated on a belief that the greatest good is served by taking the path which leads to the least suffering. But you then claim this does not lead to suicide being the logical conclusion for those of us with the misfortune to already exist. That is evasion. Of course someone will suffer less if they are dead. As will all the people they may have caused suffering to either directly or indirectly by their existence. So to reduce suffering as far as it is possible to do so then yes, one should not reproduce but also we would have to kill ourselves. Which, I hasten to add lest you wilfully misinterpret, is not what I think you or anybody else should do; but it is what your anti-natalism philosophy inevitably leads to if you follow the underlying principles. You don't get to just disclaim that route of "avoiding suffering" is as valid philosophically by the utilitarian principles you have outlined simply because that's not as far as you personally wish to go. So wouldn't it be better just to admit that this is not a sound philosophical position of yours that you actually adhere to, just a personal preference you've dressed up in a frilly tutu of verbiage and neologisms and set pirouetting?

You also say that the human race should choose to end itself by ceasing procreation (again why so modest? Why not just get it over with if reduction of human suffering is the actual goal?) But leaving that aside: you say that it would not matter that along with ending all human suffering you would also end all human love, joy, excitement, achievement etc because there would be no-one around to miss those things... But likewise, there would be no-one around to enjoy the benefit of the end of human suffering! You romanticise non-existence repeatedly, as did the poorly young man in one of the articles you posted, as a place of "safety, peace" etc - but this is totally illusory as to not exist negates any possibility of safety and peace, just as it negates all possibility of danger and suffering. You are not comparing a good and a bad option; you are comparing an option with no option at all, or even an awareness of a choice. To use your "travel" analogy, it isn't at all like the choice is betwen "exotic country, high chance of cancer" or "living like a Vulcan"; it would be between sending your child to the exotic country with high cancer risk or having them placed in an induced coma from birth as a preventative measure.

You seem to have some sort of subconscious or tacit belief that there is some sort of consciousness that would be able to appreciate its non-existence; which I scarcely need to tell you makes no sense whatsoever.

I do think that because of my genetics and parenting, my children will add more to the world that they take away but even if I didn't, it would not change my decision to have them.

I don't think it makes any sense to look at these things on a global scale. Birth rates in this country are sustainable. We are told we need hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year to keep the economy going. I don't see what relevance the birth rate in China, for example, has to me here.

I look at these things marginally and am don't subscribe to "well if everyone did that" when I don't control what everyone does, I control what I do. There is not much difference between 6,700,000,000 and 6,700,000,005 so I may as well do what is best for me and my family. I don't recycle for the same reason.

In what way is it ‘best’ for your family not to recycle, Winebottle?

Ok, so your inability to make a perfectly simple A-Level philosophy point across in less than 1000 words aside, the suicide point still stands if we take into account suffering caused as well as suffering experienced. The number of individuals any one person will connect with/impact on in the course of their lives is huge. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that the suffering they cause those individuals by their existence (which none of them consented to) is trumped by their individual fear of death. The sums don't work. Or at least they wouldnt if you could do them, but you can't because suffering can't be quantified like that, there is no unit of measurement so you can say X experience provides approx 200g of suffering, medics struggle even to have any kind of reliable scale for physical pain because it is enormously subjective.

I know a lot of people with no real fear of death. My mother was one of them; indeed she saw death as you see non-existence, as a sort of safe, peaceful thing. I do not fear my own death; I have that jolt of adrenaline when I've had some accident or other that if it has gone another way could have been death, and of course I fear pain. But death is nothingness and nothing to be afraid of as there is no-one left to be afraid. It really makes no sense to fear death. Just because you are viscerally terrified of death, even if many people are, you can't reliably say "the contemplation of death is the worst suffering" as if you could measure that. You could possibly say dying is, as that's what is actually experienced, but given everyone is going to do that anyway if you are concerned with the prevention of the maximum suffering then hurrying it up just delivers suffering you would have had anyway and saves all the suffering you might cause and experience between now and the unspecified then in the future. So it's the only rational choice based on the principles you describe.

I do so look forward to you coming back to share more wisdom with me.

I used to mark undergraduate essays that read like MirriVan’s, usually by people who’d overdosed on Beckett by way of Schopenhauer.

It's not my experience that people fear their own death over all other things - I know two people who chose death over the suffering of cancer treatment for example. Personally I fear the death of my children and other people I love far more than my own death.

On a different note, my DP and I have decided NOT to have children, this wasn't an easy decision as I'd love to have one but we decided it's best not to for the following reasons:

1. Main reason - my DP and I bothe have Bipolar, ADHD and GAD. More than likely our child would inherit this. We don't have NHS in my country, so this would put a financial strain on us ie: Meds etc. but that aside, it's not fun having these conditions and I'd feel it would be very unfair for the child itself, to basically struggle in most areas and experience depression and anxiety and life would be harder for them.

1. As we have these conditions, if our child is either physically or emotionally ill, I don't think we, ourselves would be able to cope and again wouldn't be fair on the child having parents who break down etc.

1. The world itself is becoming very tough financially and employment wise. It's a struggle and it's not like the old days, social media bullying is rife and awful, if child is bullied it would be terrible for them. It's very difficult to get buy in a world that's become very dog eat dog.

1. My DP is unable to work - his conditions are far more severe, for this reason, we could only get a bond for my salary which is enough for a small 60sqm two bedroom flat. We both have huge inheritance coming from our parents, however they still have years to live and I don't want to bring my child up in a two bedroom flat with a small garden as I was brought up in a big house, big garden and pool and loved playing outside (this may be offensive to those who have kids and live in a small house, however due to my upbringing I'd personally feel it's unfair.

1. Financial again - in my country we pay school fees which are expensive and I can't afford that expense plus medical aid for them whilst being comfortable financially. It would be a struggle and I'd want my child to have the best. It would cause us anxiety too.

1. My DP gets extremely anxious in minor situations and hates noise. I don't think he could cope at all with a screaming baby. He's also extremely anxious about something happening to me and the cats. For example I went to the shops and was a bit longer and my phone died. He got into such a state he'd called my parents and was crying!!! He is seeking help for this irrational behavior.

1. We are both very I introverted and need a lot of personal space.

1. I struggle with keeping routines and organizing myself.

1. Toys are freaking expensive 😂

10. Our own childhood were absolutely amazing. Solid and sober parents. SAHM very loving and devoted mother. Hardworking successful decent father who was and still is very hands on. 2 caravan weekend breakaways a month. Private schooling It was a very comfortable and secure upbringing and I DONT feel that our child would have the same experience that we had as children and that would devastate me as I'd feel they were missing out.

There are other reasons but I feel for those alone, I'd think it would be unfair on the child itself.

Reasons to have include:

1. We are both young minded and love imaginative play. We'd be excellent at playing etc and having great Xmas etc.

1. We live in one of the most beautiful cities in the world and by the beach and mountains. Child would have excellent outdoor life.

3, we are both extremely loving and the way our cats have turned out due to our love and care is unbelievable. This was even commented and confirmed by our Veterinarian.

1. I work from home so would be there with DP during the day.

As I said, we'd love to have just one I just don't think under the circumstances it would be fair. We'd rather have cats as our "babies" which fill our need to have something to love, bring up and care for.

Apologies if I've offended anyone, but these are purely personal decisions we've made having looked at our OWN coping mechanisms and quality of life both for us and baby. As you can see the cons outweigh the good. I cannot take the chance that we may regret having one once it's here due to cons mentioned above.

SORRY IT WAS SO LONG. I just gave some insight to our situation and why we decided not to.

To follow up on what the OP said regarding being beautiful and intelligent as a sure way of success = NOT TRUE.

I'm both, I am exceptionally intelligent woman and very lucky in the looks department.

HOWEVER - having three debilitating conditions have made it EXTREMELY hard to cope with and be successful both in the working world and in general life.

To confirm and from experience, being pretty and intelligent counts for jack shit if you struggle emotionally with all aspects of life!

I feel OP, to me it feels as though you may be trying to justify to yourself why you don't / can't have a child and would like people to confirm your reasons in order for you to feel better for not having. Sorry if this is not what your thoughts are, to me, your posts are saying just that.

Anyway what is beauty? Can you imagine a world where everyone is beautiful and highly intelligent? Everyone in their own right has beauty and intelligence. Some people are white, some black, some Indian, some Chinese? What would represent beauty to you - Chinese? Would you want a whole population of Chinese Stephen Hawkings? How unbalanced would life and the works be?

Timmytoo thank you for outlining your pros and cons for having children. This is what I mean by weighing up your options and coming to a conclusion which I’ve realised many people don’t do.

I think I’m looking for justification to myself not from others. The responses here have been interested. Children aren’t the only way to pass something of yourself to the next generation but they may be the easiest. Honestly I’m more conflicted now.

A part of it is symmetry. Your last post highlights why it should not be decided at a group level. There is most definitely variance across individuals. The same way you can decide Bopolar etc would not be favourable for a child others can decide if their own traits are suitable.

Everyone is equally endowed with the natural right to have children.

We should strive to reproduce responsibly so that this right it not stripped of us by fascist governments that spring up in response to dwindling resources.

We should financially reward those who remain childless, and heap scorn upon those who elect to have more than two.

Thank you Livupq for your feedback. I understand your reasoning and respect your insight. I hope you make the best decision based on your life and ambition.

For what it's worth, we don't feel that we are missing out, more like we are looking at our situation logically. Many people have children as a way of life, either because it's expected, or to live out their dreams through their child, some of which are so broody that they have children based on emotions not logic.

So many children are brought up in poverty or different culture ie: female genital mutation, marrying young etc. If the parents have experienced the above, why would they bring a child into the world knowing that they would experience similar.

They say, having children is one of the most selfish things you could do.

I admire people who can cope with children and their needs, unfortunately, I have to accept that I am not capable and accept that having a child myself, would put me in the "selfish" category as it would only benefit my needs and not the child. I am not willing to do this as it goes against my personal values, one of which is being selfless and be kind and thoughtful to others and not willingly subject innocent children to a difficult life from birth due to parents' mental health issues.

Just a picture of our beloved cat for fun

S/he’s a cutey Timmytoo!

Still reading more threads concerning or started by people who don’t really care about the environment, the impact of their choices on others... I think it is time to be less hard on myself.