The right reasons to have children?

[livupq]

If the world is as overpopulated as people say do you think you have to have more extrinsic reasons for having children? More and more jobs will be become automated and the jobs we need require more and more expertise and intelligence. On the parenting side it is increasingly important to have parents that value education and understand child development who can provide a loving and nurturing home to children. Having all these traits and the money and time to do that isn’t possible for everyone.

If you were not particularly special - not very pretty or intelligent or with special talents is there a reason to have children? Understandably most people want them but should we put that behind us as selfish desires? Naturally things won’t always go to plan and even if you are smart or pretty your children may not be. Even if you could support them and provide for them emotionally and physically you could lose your job... but that seems different than trying to do the right thing in the first place. Right now it feels like having children is the natural state no matter what your circumstances even though we are supposedly enlightened.

Just interested in others thoughts.

It's pretty much guaranteed that the planet would 'do better' without us, although humans weren't around at all during the last major extinction event (the dinosaurs) so we're not the cause of all ills. Many animals would be more prolific without humans, however many others would die - we all influence each other for good and for bad. The question I suppose is, if everyone died and the planet just existed on without humans would that be an inherently 'good' thing? Is our extinction any sadder/more unwanted than the extinction of other species? It's hard to put a value on it because essentially whether we exist or not doesn't really matter in any objective sense.

I have to be honest and say that I think the idea that you shouldn't do anything unless you know for certain that it'll have the perfect or most desirable outcome really immature. That's just not how life works. You could be the most saintly person ever to exist and still get killed by a falling tree in a storm. Much of life is pure chance and there is absolutely no way whatsoever to guarantee that any choice is the right one - it may be right at the time but have devastating consequences. I'm sure many of the world's most evil people had lovely, kind, intelligent parents who wanted the absolute best for them.

Religion exists because of centuries of struggle with the questions you're asking here - the main question being 'what's the point?' Humans seem to constantly search for a reason - something that says that what they're doing has meaning. In the meantime, random things happen and time marches on not giving a fuck basically.

I think this thread is interesting. I have not had children because that way I have no dependants and I can kill myself without added guilt. (However I still have lots of guilt at the suffering I will cause loved ones.)

I never really knew about anti natalists but I suppose I am one as I couldn't bear to see a child born to suffer aswell.

Creating new life is almost a way in which people continue in such precarious or dispairing situations to help provide for someone else. I see friends who have utterly miserable lives but continue living for their kids. (Obviously, sadly this is not in every case). It's a way humans become linked to others so closely your own death isn't so simple. Lonliness is a big factor in death.

Someone mentioned the penguins. It's amazing isn't it what animals put ourselves through.

Spaghettijumper I agree that nothing is certain but there are different levels of risk which many people don’t even consider. People can think critically about their life to come to more informed decisions e.g. are they happy with their own existence, do they think they can be good parents, think their child is likely to have a good life and why do they think this? They may be able to accept certain risks and mitigate in advance. I think while we can’t know or predict everything it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to control what we do know about.

MirriVan I think you’ve summed up how I feel on most points. Not offended but I think I have to disagree that my stance is the same/similar to incels who think they have no choice. The ideology I’ve read so far looks to be one of entitlement- believing they are entitled to women and even some suggestions that women should be forced to service those who can’t find girlfriends. That is the opposite to my stance of free will and making educated choices. Now if they were volcels (voluntarily celebrate) because they thought they did not have the traits to be good partners/lovers etc that would be closer to my view. Also I’m sure it differs amongst incels but most seem completely concerned with themselves not the betterment of humanity or their future children. To say they’ve also acknowledged they don’t have traits that would make them suitable mates is I think too kind on most cases. It is also true for many but how most reach that conclusion is telling. They don’t receive the female attention they think they deserve and hence think they don’t have the right traits. It’s s subtle difference but I think notable and makes all the difference. Many are quite average but have a distorted view of relationships, women etc.., but that is probably another discussion.

Marcie your post makes me so sad. I don't know you, your life or your circumstances but I hope you have all the support you need in your life to make you not feel that you need to end it

Idiocracy (the film) sums up what you’re saying

Spaghettijumper I agree that nothing is certain but there are different levels of risk which many people don’t even consider. People can think critically about their life to come to more informed decisions e.g. are they happy with their own existence, do they think they can be good parents, think their child is likely to have a good life and why do they think this? They may be able to accept certain risks and mitigate in advance. I think while we can’t know or predict everything it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to control what we do know about.

I see what you mean but my point is that the idea of control is a complete illusion. Yes there are some things you can plan for to a certain extent but for the most part everything in your life that goes wrong will be almost entirely unexpected or uncontrollable. I doubt any parent in Germany or Poland in the 1930s had a child expecting them to go to the gas chamber one day. Or that any of the parents of the people killed in the Manchester bomb expected that to be in any way part of their lives.

My personal view is that living life in such a way as to avoid suffering is entirely pointless. In order to truly avoid suffering you must never want anything or love anything. You must also never take a single risk or try to do anything that isn't entirely predictable. And if you do all that, guess what, you'll still bloody suffer because suffering is part of life and you have to grow up and accept it. The only thing you'll have gained is the added misery of never really engaging with life out of pure fear.

Before having children and looking at parenthood through rose tinted glasses...

I wanted children because I was broody - so biological desire.
I wanted children to make my own family and own traditions - so the need for life time company.
I wanted children to teach them and show them about the world - so the need to feel needed and have a purpose.

There were other reasons too but those are the primary ones I remember. Adding to world population wasn’t really in my radar of concern at the time. I was young when i got pregnant first time too, only 21, so was only just out of childhood myself.

I don’t think I’d have chosen differently though. Although not as perfect as it was in my head prior to children I am very thankful to have healthy, happy mini me’s in my life and even a certain satisfaction of successfully fulfilling that biological need to carry on the genetic path of my ancestors.

^Even living as per your suggestion does not rule out suffering. And I think it's deeply offensive to suggest that not having children is 'not really engaging with life'.
There are plenty of ways to engage with life that don't involve forcing someone else into it.^

That's exactly what I said - you can take no risks and still suffer.

Do you feel you engage with life? You seem quite negative about it which implies that you don't engage with it but I might be wrong on that.

So we should let the human race die out?

So we should let the human race die out, in your view?

Why?

Ending your life in anticipation of something that might happen results in less suffering than continuing to live your life until you're forced to go?

Ah so we should end the human race in anticipation of it being forced to end?

And what difference would that make?

Britain is by no mean overpopulated; indeed it is losing population: the average mother has 1.8 children or something like that, which is not a replacement rate.

I would not suggest anyone should have children if they did not want to; but someone who wants children should not put it off for fears of overpopulation.