To think we should forgive old people their transgressions?

[lboogy]

Reading a lot of threads here about PILs and parents and how irritating they can be has made me think about forgiveness generally.

Obviously each circumstance is different but for gripes like getting bad presents, being ignored, having rude off the cuff things said should we be more forgiving in the knowledge that parents & in laws may not be around for much longer and wouldn't it be better to ignore/turn the other cheek. After all when we get to that age and much of our support system has died we'd need our remaining family to be compassionate /forgiving to us.

My DF was guilty of all of the above. Given he was 92 when he died should I just have abandoned him till he learnt the error of his ways.

Maybe it's easier for you to tolerate racism and homophobia than me, but I wouldn't be able to. Personally for me(I also have racist/homophobic family members) being kind and nice to someone who displays such hateful and repulsive behaviour is impossible. I don't want to set an example to my kids that they should tolerate people who judge others based on the colour of their skin or their sexual orientation.

I won't be caring for my homophobic, sexist and racist father in his old age because I can't stand to be around his awful and disgusting remarks. That's his fault, not mine. I don't care that he's family, and I don't mind abandoning a shitty person. Obviously that's where we differ I guess, whether you think being racist and homophobic makes you a shitty person or not.

I know I first heard of Islamophobia, transphobia and the modern concept of misogyny online.

I don't really understand this Augusta. Islamaphobia means people who are against/scared of/hateful towards Muslims, no? You didn't know that there are people that hate Muslims until you saw it on the internet? As a Muslim I'd love to move to whatever peaceful haven you seem to live in where Islamophobia is unheard of

Another thing that gets me about all these people saying such and such an -ism or -phobia is never acceptable is that they think that their opinions and values are not just correct, but that they are some sort of eternal and everlasting truth which not only are right now, but have been right all the way through history and in to the future.

It’s just ignorant and arrogant to think that opinions and values are transmitted as static things from generation to generation.

There have been plenty of people throughout history who were good people and genuinely did what they thought was right and what the majority of their society also thought was right. These people were frequently regarded as heroes, yet they’re now condemned for not being able to see into the future and live their lives by the values of early 21st century liberals. I’m sure quite a few idiots ate under the impression that society in the past was always made up of lentil weaving PC yogurt pushings SJWs who spent their days wandering the streets looking for things to be offended by and everything else was just an abberation but it’s not true. Winston Churchill was a good example of that.

People like that are silly too, because they believe that because their views are an eternal truth, they will be transmitted to the next generations unchanged so they will never be on the wrong side of the zeitgeist.

Again, this is untrue, as many feminists, gay activists and anti-racists have discovered recently. Many of them were card carrying PC liberals who bought in to every aspect of identity politics and would have been the first to censure others they thought had transgressed. Then suddenly along come the TRAs and suddenly they’re the ones being called bigots, dehumanised and threatened because they think things other people don’t like.

All the people saying ‘oh there is never any justification for this -ism or that -phobia, I can promise you this: When you are in your 80s or 90s and your Great Grandchildren are visiting you in hospital, you will have a dearly held and truly believed opinions that they find abhorrent. I can’t predict what that will be, nobody can. Maybe there will be a resurgence of religion and atheists will be deemed offensive? It could be anything.

But every person being intolerant of the elderly, I can guarantee that when you become elderly you will come across people just like you are now who will be so blinkered and dogmatic they will condemn you in just the way you condemn the elderly now. It’s karma really.

But every person being intolerant of the elderly, I can guarantee that when you become elderly you will come across people just like you are now who will be so blinkered and dogmatic they will condemn you in just the way you condemn the elderly now. It’s karma really.

However, there have been many people on this thread who have grandparents/parents with different views e.g. some racist and some not at all, even though they all seem to be similar ages. Surely that proves that age isn't an excuse to be racist, homophobic etc when there are plenty of old people the same age that condemn these behaviours?

And I find it a bit odd that you say we shouldn't be intolerant of elderly people who are racist, sexist etc. Why on earth would I tolerate racism? What kind of person would that make me, to tolerate racism? That would make me feel very guilty and I wouldn't want my children to see me 'tolerating' hateful behaviour.

I don't really understand this Augusta. Islamaphobia means people who are against/scared of/hateful towards Muslims, no? You didn't know that there are people that hate Muslims until you saw it on the internet? As a Muslim I'd love to move to whatever peaceful haven you seem to live in where Islamophobia is unheard of

See, this is exactly the sort of dimness and inability to understand that values are changing that I mean. You’re either very young or daft, one of the two.

Pre the late 90s Islamophobia was not a thing known in any great numbers outside academia . It certainly wasn’t a word or a concept most people had heard or understood and it didn’t really enter the general lexicon until 9/11. The Muslim population of the UK was half what it is now in 2001 and before then even lower. Tthere were many places in the UK where people just wouldn’t come across Muslims let alone be familiar with the concept of Islamophobia.

Thank you though, you have given a perfect example of the complete ignorance that values change and adapt over time and the massive arrogance of assuming your views and opinions are a universal and unchanging thing.

The level of ignorance of history and just plain darn stupidity that allows people to believe the sort of nonsense you’re peddling is astounding.

Do you honestly believe in the 1920s people would parsimoniously tut at their neighbours for misgendering someone or for misogynistically saying that women belonged in the home? Or that in the 1980s students were no platforming speakers they didn’t like?

This actually genuinely scares me. The sort of regimes that believed they held universal truths which would never change, and those who support them - they have created some of the most evil and oppressive regimes in history.

The idea people, even elderly, vulnerable people, should be socially persecuted for wrongthink terrifies me. And the fact the people who do it at so smug and deluded and back slapping about doing it is scarier still.

short word , my DF is 80 - in earlier years he would say things which were non PC about same sex couples - He now does not - just because he is old does not mean he does not learn. So - I think you can teach an old dog new tricks. ( I do not mean that to sound patronising - he has just moved on from earlier conversations )

Augusta, while I agree with much of what you say, students were no platforming people they didn't agree with in the 1980s and I objected to it as strongly then as I do now. Voltaire has always been my friend.

That would make me feel very guilty and I wouldn't want my children to see me 'tolerating' hateful behaviour. I'm a very direct person so any racist or homophobic remarks were challenged by me. My DC are delightful non racist, non homophobic adults because they grew up with delightful non racist, non homophobic me and DH.

What's no platforming got to do with challenging racism and homophobia?

I hate no platforming and think it's creating a horrible worls where (hate the word) snowflakes think they shouldn't ever have to hear a different opinion in case it triggers their oversensitivity and wokeness, but I'll still think someone using the n word is out of order and will challenge it.

You can be against no platforming and still think it's ridiculous to brush off and minimise spiteful nasty bullying and intolerant comment because someone is 60.

I worked with older people for some years and actually, the vast majority were very pleasant. Given that a significant number had dementia, this is quite surprising. However, most people are pleasant. With the much older people, I did notice some language that was outdated but it wasn’t used in a malicious or spiteful way. Based on my experience of hundreds of older people, I don’t see why we should excuse behaviour without good reason and ‘good reason’ includes dementia and infections amongst other things.

Depends what you call elderly and what you consider to be a transgression?
My mum is 92 now. She was quite a difficult argumentative woman when she was in her 40s and 50s and not a mum I could confide in. But she has mellowed a lot in the last 20 years and is now a pleasant and uncomplaining (if a tad stubborn) elderly lady.
Yes I have forgiven a lot of past transgressions. I try to understand what was going on in her life during those years and why she was that way. I work hard at maintaining a good relationship with her now and I know we won’t have her around much longer. Thank goodness we are in a good place with each other. I would hate to be hanging on to old grudges.

Augusta there is no need to be so patronising and rude. Unless you're old, then in that case it's perfectly fine

I'm 38 so I'm not that young and I don't consider myself to be that daft and it's funny how you assume others to be smug and deluded when your post is incredibly condescending. I didn't mean that people would all be expected to know the word Islamaphobia, a fairly recent term, but the general idea and assumption and people shouldn't be hateful or oppressive towards those who are Muslim; an idea that was surely present in places before 9/11, no? There were Muslims being oppressed before 9/11 amd even if people didn't come across Muslims, they wouldve most likely known that they existed.

The idea people, even elderly, vulnerable people, should be socially persecuted for wrongthink terrifies me.

Why do you consider racism, sexism, homophobia etc as wrongthink rather than a hateful behaviour or bigotry? When you say 'socially persecuted' do you mean by family members? Why would you expect a family member to have to put up with repeated remarks that they find hateful, just because they are old, especially if said family member is related to the remarks they are making e.g. if they are mixed race, gay, a woman etc?

I would be clearly taking your point and discussing it at length with respect if you weren't so rude about your response. It seems like it would be impossible to have a civilised debate with someone who describes another person as/having; darn stupid, ignorant, smug, deluded, inability, dimness, nonsense..all in one post. Calling someone stupid doesn't help you to get your point across, it paints you as petty, condescending and dismissive of other people.

I'm a very direct person so any racist or homophobic remarks were challenged by me. My DC are delightful non racist, non homophobic adults because they grew up with delightful non racist, non homophobic me and DH.

If you challenged your father every time, then my viewpoint changes as you weren't tolerating the behaviour. I (wrongly) assumed from your earlier post that you weren't actually doing anything about his remarks. However for me I wouldn't be able to do this as me and my children are not white(obviously I have no idea what ethnicity you are) and I have close friends that are not straight, so for me to be around and for my children to hear such hateful remarks, my anxiety and mental health would be at risk. And basically I don't want my kids around people who say hateful things, whether they are my father or not, which is why I'm NC with him. I just can't stand to be around people lime that no matter how old I am for my own and my children's sakes.

Bit of an over reaction there if I might say so. I didn't see it as rude and condescending at all. A bit exasperated perhaps and certainly passionate.

Bit of an over reaction there if I might say so. I didn't see it as rude and condescending at all. A bit exasperated perhaps and certainly passionate.

So you don't think saying someone is very daft, ignorant, deluded, smug, stupid, peddling nonsense and being dim in one post is rude and condescending at all?

To be fair she applied all those adjectives to the opinions not the person. And it was neither rude nor condescending. Are we no longer allowed to say what we think at all?

To be fair she applied all those adjectives to the opinions not the person. And it was neither rude nor condescending. Are we no longer allowed to say what we think at all?

Don't pretend those adjectives weren't directed at me in your defence of her it's pretty obvious they were. And that's your personal opinion if you don't think calling people that don't agree with you smug, deluded, ignorant, dim, stupid, arrogant etc(all of which she did) is rude; personally I think doing that is rude and uncalled for, and I would be ashamed if I saw my kids saying these things to other people over the internet. And when did i say you couldn't say what you think? It's possible to put forward an argument without making personal attacks on people it doesnt make your argument any more valid at all which is why I view it as completely unnecessary.

Age is not an excuse for behaviour. My NDNs have given me a tirade of harassment and abuse at the ages of 60 whereas I know full well that if they were my age we’d have no issues. They’re incredibly racist and I can no longer have POC visit my home as they feel uncomfortable. Council and police don’t care so there’s nothing I can do. I feel like the authories take on your view OP, they often shrug off older people/the elderly doing things that young people would get ‘told off for’ instantly. It’s so unfair. I have to put up with them out on the pavement shouting and swearing til all hours but if a group of teens did that the police would be involved Bewilders me beyond belief

My Dad is in his late 70's and could easily become one of "those" types of older folk, filled with intolerance and bigotry. Fortunately he's just a good person so isn't the sort who'd preach any kind of intolerance. If he did I think we're open enough to be able to pick one another up on it without it descending into a family war.

MIL is much younger but far less tolerant. If she says rude things in front of the DC I correct her and remind her that the things she says in front of them set the bar for their moral code as they grow up. She's not keen on it but it's how it needs to be; being above a certain age doesn't give her a get-out card for being a decent human being. It should be the bare minimum we expect of everyone.

The DC are at the ages now where they'll correct her, too, and she hates that even more than she hates me correcting her as she thinks children correcting adults is precocious. She's right; it is a little precocious. But I'd far rather have precocious children than racist ones, so I pick my battles and don't correct them for challenging her bullshit.

“Age is not an excuse for behaviour. My NDNs have given me a tirade of harassment and abuse at the ages of 60 whereas I know full well that if they were my age we’d have no issues.”
So 60 is elderly? You genuinely think that the police are giving your 60 year old neighbours an easy ride because of their age??????

Oh well - I am hurtling towards 60. A few years to go but not many . I still don't think of myself as elderly (others may ) but not too old to think or learn

I’d be looking forward to it, Basilisk. Apparently you can get away with anything once you’re 60- the police just shrug because you’re “elderly”

Ha ha@ Bertrandrussell Memo to self - buy purple clothes so I am exonerated from everything.

Well we forgive the young! for all sorts of things.

Here's Mark Twain, about his own dad.

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

We forgive the young because they learn from their mistakes. That can’t always be said for some of the older folk about who think they have the right to be arseholes because they’re older than me.

"However, I have noticed many of the current 60-70 year olds today expect respect unquestionably."

This is interesting - I am (just - v v few years) the younger side of 60 - DH is older. Neither we nor any contemporaneous friends expect this. BUT BUT we have a relatively small circle of friends and acquaintances so I can't really comment beyond the realm of anecdote.