To think we should forgive old people their transgressions?

[lboogy]

Reading a lot of threads here about PILs and parents and how irritating they can be has made me think about forgiveness generally.

Obviously each circumstance is different but for gripes like getting bad presents, being ignored, having rude off the cuff things said should we be more forgiving in the knowledge that parents & in laws may not be around for much longer and wouldn't it be better to ignore/turn the other cheek. After all when we get to that age and much of our support system has died we'd need our remaining family to be compassionate /forgiving to us.

The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

BertrandRussell
Sorry to disagree but would you call someone (for example) with Tourette's shouting 'Nigger' a racist?
As my earlier post, frontal lobe deterioration caused by aging 'can' result in loss of inhibitions and judgement. It's even been posited as a reason for elderly people getting caught up in gambling. If someone used to behave differently then you should probably assume that something in their brain is changing.

There's no excuse whatsoever for a 70 year old man using the n word. My mum (in her 90s) used it to describe a colour and I pulled her up every time. It's never been acceptable in a 70 year old's adult life.

But people seem generally to be more easily offended than they used to be and to consider things rude that were once taken for granted. I find I need to apply much more of a filter now than I used to.

OP "Some of what has been described in this thread is downright rude even then I think do you want someone to die with bad blood between you?"

well someone has to say it - band aids don't fix bullet holes

speaking from experience, if you were annoyed with someone about something before they died, and then they died without anyone ever apologising or forgiving....it's perfectly fine. I don't suddenly abandon what I thought of someone, or my principles etc etc because they died!

if someone has lost their filter due to a medical condition, that's totally different than just age.

this is a really interesting thread for me because I'm thinking about moving in with my mum, who is 80, and people have expressed concern that she may cease to be the lovely woman she is because of "ageing". I don't see why general ageing would change her. If she got dementia or something yes, but her personality has been the same in all the 43 years I've known her. I'm wondering if the view is affected by the casual ageism that seems to surround us.

Not just because of age, no. I could forgive my late nan a lot in her last year's because she had dementia and truly didn't realise what she was saying at times. And in her lucid moments she would have been horrified to know the kind of things she said when she was not here. My mum is in her 80's and as someone else said upthread, has seen a lot of changes in her life. Whilst I might forgive some of the things she says, I always pull her up on comments that could be seen as unkind.
My other relative in their 70's, who has caused a lot of upset this year with their uncalled for and unkind comments and actions, followed up with a complete denial of it despite being seen and heard by several family members - that one I've gone nc with. I've told them why, they don't accept it so I've made my decision and won't change my mind, despite their frequent attempts to contact me as though nothing has happened.

Sorry - rogue apostrophe in there - damn predictive text!

To be honest OP I consider your post patronising and condescending . Unless as other pp have said there is a dementia diagnosis et al then why are you arrogantly reducing older people to less than they were

When I am old I don't want a pandering patronising idiot to bend down and say "oh don't worry dear we know you didn't mean it "
If I am being an asshole at 79 and I have full capacity mentally then who are you to discount it...thanks but I'll take the right and the consequences of being a dick like everyone else does

You are not being nice OP you are being condescending and arrogant ...older people shockingly are people, able to be pleasant or awful and choose to be so , as well as choosing to deal with the consequences

Please don't kid yourself you are nice...you aren't

“But people seem generally to be more easily offended than they used to be and to consider things rude that were once taken for granted. I find I need to apply much more of a filter now than I used to.”

Really? What sort of things? I’m old too and haven’t noticed that.
Grumpyoldpersonwithcats sorry- I assumed we were talking about NT people. Obviously allowances have to be made for particular circumstances.

Yes and no. I work with older people, some who have long ago lost their social filter and some who possibly never had one. Relatives are always harder though because of the emotional element and the history of the relationship.

Getting older is no excuse for rudeness/stinginess/racism/homophobia/enter bad behaviour of choice

Unless expressed via a referendum, apparently.

Sorry, OP, but you always cave in to your sister because you don't want her to die with bad feeling between you?

I can half understand this sentiment (though I wouldn't say I agree with it) with regard to the elderly. But your sister?! Are there unusual circumstances? Is she normally teetering on the brink of death?

Because otherwise I would say you have a slightly morbid outlook upon life and should probably be rethinking this.

Getting older is no excuse for rudeness/stinginess/racism/homophobia/enter bad behaviour of choice
My DF was guilty of all of the above. Given he was 92 when he died should I just have abandoned him till he learnt the error of his ways.

Unless expressed via a referendum, apparently. I'm sure my DF would have voted Remain but that's because he had a business head on his shoulders.

I worked in elderly care for 20 years.
The vast majority of patients were kind decent average people. Some were utter gits. Medical problems aside the majority of the nasty folks were selfish arrogant ignorant gits all thier lives, age had nothing to do with it. Old people are just people they have no special switch that turns on over 70 and turns them into arses.

Unless there is a real medical, mental, social reason behind it age is no excuse for being a shit to family or anyone else.

Op you seem to have a strange obsession with 'excusing people and making up with them in case they die' you are not duty bound to take crap of someone just because they are old and will die some day. We all will, none of us are gettng out of this alive.

If you are being a shit to everyone your whole life dont expect them to flock to you when you are dying you dont deserve anything.

Btw If people chose to be nasty shits all thier lives thats thier choice who the hell are you to tell them "there there its just your age"? Who made you the older generations advocate? I am Sure they can speak for themselves and dont want some patronising bullshit making light of thier own decisions.

Nope.
My DF is 73. He was very rude and hurtful to me last year when I called him up on his behaviour towards me. This year hasn't improved much with his failure to understand the affect of both DH and me being ill for long periods.

Age has nothing to do with his self-centredness and complete lack of empathy.

Nope.

My late-DH was somewhat self obsessed and irritable when he was actively dying - entirely understandable and utterly forgivable.
He wasn't however rude, racist, sexist, demanding or any of those things that some people just are, regardless of their age.

If someone does something without actual intent to hurt then you should forgive them, regardless of their age. You can detest their attitude or their words, but forgive them. It's easier said than done but you'd feel better for it. That's not to say that you can't politely tell them that you find their words or actions offensive & explain why, because that way they might change, but equally they might not and it's pointless storing up hate inside you. Just accept that people are flawed (including you) and that everyone will annoy or offend someone else at some point by mistake or through carelessness.

If you explain why the words were rude/hurtful but they don't apologise and persist, what then?

My MIL is in her 80's. She was brought up in an era where casual racism and homophobia were part and parcel of British society. Remember the comedies in the early 70's like Love Thy Neighbour? She is not racist or homophobic though, so yes, unless illness such as dementia cause someone to lack a filter, I don't think you should give older people some slack.

However, I have noticed many of the current 60-70 year olds today expect respect unquestionably. Possibly because they were brought up to give unquestioned respect to older people. Beliefs which you had ingrained into you while you were a child are very hard to shift. Even if you see the world is changing around you, it's hard to believe that it's "right".

There's no excuse whatsoever for a 70 year old man using the n word. ... It's never been acceptable in a 70 year old's adult life. I'm not yet 70. I was taught "Eeny meeny miny mo" complete with n word in primary school, "Little Black Sambo" was on the school library shelf. Robinsons was still encouraging children to collect tokens for golliwog badges. So while you should expect a 70 year old to understand that we've moved on, it's perfectly possible that he was alive at a time when the word was acceptable in the area he was brought up in.

I'm 65, I can never remember the n word being acceptable.

You probably have always had more of a filter than me @BertrandRussell.

I agree with you OP.

Firstly, a lot of people forget that a lot of social discourse these days happens on the net. That is where the rules of modern discourse come from, where we learn what we can and can’t say. I know I first heard of Islamophobia, transphobia and the modern concept of misogyny online.

In previous generations much of the transmittal of these ideas would have come from church, school, the shops and the community. Even the old fashioned mainstream media (newspapers, radio, TV) have always been less overt and prescriptive about these rules and they don’t have the social aspect the net does where people who say the wrong thing will know it’s wrong because of the immediate social censure from other posters. The only thing I think is comparable in terms of social censure these days is the workplace, but most elderly people have been out of there for years and years before identity politics was a thing. So I really do think the elderly should be given some leeway although gently corrected.

@swingofthings I think I agree that anxiety does make older people say and do things that are not right/offensive

“Possibly because they were brought up to give unquestioned respect to older people. ”

Yes, unquestioning respect for older people was a really distinguishing characteristic of the 1960s........

No. My mother was an ungrateful wretch. Presents that were given (very nice presents in a lot of cases) were either rudely handed back or passed on swiftly (nothing covert about it, she almost revelled in boasting about it).
One of my cousins has a child who was born with a genetic disorder. When we were at his gran's house, she was very proudly showing me photographs of him and her baking cakes. Both of them were dishevelled and covered in flour, as was the kitchen, but they both looked so happy and pleased with themselves! ln the car on the way home l remarked about how nice the photos were. My mother's response? "Well l wouldn't be showing people them. lt's nowt to brag about."
'Brag' about? His gran clearly loved him, and he loved her. They were both happy having a lovely afternoon.
l was disgusted. She was in her seventies at the time, but that does not excuse being utterly vile about a child with SEN. Thank god l didn't have a child who she didn't consider to be 'perfect'. l have no doubt how she'd have reacted.
Age is no excuse. l'm 60, and people need to realise that respect is earned. You can't demand it. People rarely change, in my experience. They only become more so like they've always been.