Is my neighbour being cruel to her child?

[Bigdad74]

I live in the UK. I have a neighbour from Eastern Europe who has some strange ideas about parenting. She is a single mother of two boys aged 10 and 4. I have no doubt whatsoever that she loves her children. However it has recently come to light that she is taking the youngest out walking their dog, 2 or 3 times a night, actually in the middle of the night when everyone else is in bed. It is winter time and I find this bizarre. She claims it is to build up his immune system. Meanwhile her 10 year old is left asleep alone in the house. I am greatly concerned.

In my husband's EE country they certainly had a bedtime programme at 8pm when he was little, and for school times they did go around that time. Holidays, which are longer than here, they went around 11 and slept in late. Also had naps til quite old.

but do many cultures not have bedtimes,what happens when they go to school?

Off topic but my DH comes from a culture where bedtimes don't exist. Children stay up with the adults all evening and usually drop off somewhere on a lap or a sofa and get scooped up and put to bed. Once school starts they tend to drop off earlier and/or nap in the afternoon when they get back.

There are no fraught bedtime rows, no arguments about how late or early they should be in bed at any certain age, no obsession with bedtime routine and no apparent detrimental effect on the dcs who seem to sleep happily and healthily when they need to. Bliss.

That's exactly how it works for the school children I mentioned earlier Haffdonga.

Also, the kids soon realise that if they don't sleep when they're tired the night before, they're going to be tired at school.

It all sounds a bit idealistic. I know two families who did that (one British, one not) and their children were knackered. It's ok if they are not on the TV/Playstation and are just milling about waiting to feel tired, but if they are up late on devices then sleep is massively interrupted. I had one child that just fell asleep anywhere, on any surface, as a toddler but that didn't continue when she got older and went to school.

I agree that there's a lot of angst over bedtimes in the UK, but I don't think it means that children that got to bed at 11 every night and have to go to nursery are better off, or regulate themselves all the time.

Also, in some cultures, bed sharing is a necessity due to poverty and can affect amount of time slept/school performance, there's been research on this.

I am an "Eastern European" (breaking news: Eastern Europe is not a homogenous territory and traditions differ in different countries too) single mother. What your neighbour does is very weird, and does not have a cultural frame of reference. Taking a small child outside in the middle of the night in bad weather is not good parenting anywhere in the world.
It is true that thers is no concept of a strict bedtime in EE parenting. My children take a good 2 hour nap after coming from school/nursery, and then stay up late until approximately 10 pm, slowly winding down. They are able to do their homework with a fresh head after a sleep, and we spend great family time together. They are awake and bursting with energy at 6.30 am the next day, I never have to wake them up.
I found it bizarre when the health visitor explained to me that children in the UK are expected to be sleeping by 7pm ("...and then you can watch telly!"). I am not even home by 7pm most days! Other EE mums warned me to NEVER mention our sleep routine to anyone, as there will necessarily be a do-gooder who'd scream abuse to the social services.

A 4 year old is being taken out at times varying from 1/2/3am with their mum for a walk that is several miles long and they have fallen asleep on a bench and awoken freezing?

Either this never happened or you need to explain this to the local health visitor/social services. Hypothermia causes sleep - this is how people who are homeless die.

This is not usual for any culture, I would imagine...

(breaking news: Eastern Europe is not a homogenous territory and traditions differ in different countries too)

No shit Sherlock

The 7pm thing is interesting as I've never had a HV tell me that. Mind you, I have had some batshit suggestions from one many years ago.

Perhaps she is pulling your leg?

I think as a country we need to move on from the 1950s in terms of sleep routines for kids and parents having "downtime" from 7.30

It is unecissarily stressful in my view. But it doesn't meant I agree with a child walking several miles in the middle of the night. I don't have an issue with a 10 yr old beeing left for 20mins for a short walk but again not the 4 yr old but I wouldn't really have an issue with say an 8pm longer walk with 4 yr old and 10 yr old left at home

But i am a bit more laid back than most

No shit Sherlock

I did not mean this in a patronising way, but now see it does sound a bit ewww. Just a bit tired of being "Polish" or "Eastern European" all the time - even after I tell people where I am from. Estonia and Bulgaria are as different - culturally, socially, politically, linguistically - as, say, Britain and Portugal.

Sorry Silver I forgot the smiley, so it looked a bit arsey. Wasn't meant to be

Oh my gosh!! I am so surprised at all the posters saying this is fine!!!

It is NOT fine, whatever culture or country you are from (and ive lived all over the world ans have many EE friends ans friends from all over the place), to take a child out 2 or 3 times in the middle of the night to walk 2 or 3 miles in the cold. That is simply not ok, unless it's a one-off because, say, the child couldn't sleep or it was a special fun 'midnight walk' or something.

OP, you absolutely are right to worry if you have your facts straight.

That child is probably in school, or will be come September. How can they concentrate having been up half the night walking in the cold?

Children need a good nights, uninterrupted where possible, sleep.

Children need to be protected and kept warm on cold nights where possible.

OP, please don't listen to the posters saying this is fine. If you are sure of your facts, you need to mention this to someone (school? Social services advice line?) and if you are not sure but suspect, seek advice from say the NSPCC.

Poor little muppet.

Taking your child out in the night to walk the dog and fall asleep on a bench isn't a cultural thing, it's idiotic.
I used to walk home on my own at ten years old and was even able to do some simple cooking so can't see a big issue there if it's for a short time but the night walks are simply moronic.

I agree with you OP. It is not good for the child to be going out various times in the middle of the night to walk a dog. I would be questioning her sanity to be honest. She's not doing the right thing by her kids. Kids of four should be tucked up cozy in their beds at night. Safe from harm and the elements. You are right to be worried.

Of course disturbing a child’s sleep at various times throughout the night to go walking outside is ludicrous. Poor kid must be exhausted. This has nothing to do with cultural differences or having set bedtimes it’s to do with making sure a child gets a good night’s sleep which they need for growth and development.
And falling asleep with the child on a park bench in the middle of the night is totally irresponsible. Apart from the fact child should be in bed, it places both mother and child in a vulnerable situation.
And the Op isn’t a stalker he’s made it perfectly clear that he hears them through his open window each time the neighbour goes out and the neighbour herself has described to his wife what she does.
I couldn’t care less what nationality she is, what cultural differences there are - this is daft behaviour and very hard on the child. Can’t believe people are suggesting otherwise.
And our dogs would think we’d gone nuts if we started dragging them out for walks two or three times a night.

Well, I’m from CEE and none of my friends or family do it and it sounds pretty bonkers. I’d be shitting my pants out in the middle of the night with a 4 year old.

I can imagine your neighbours post on the EE equilivate of MN

My neighbours order their children to bed at 7pm. Then expect them to stay there for 12 hours. If the children cry or get out of bed they are told off. I feel this is very cruel.
They also have very set times for food. 8am, 12pm and 5pm. If the children are not hungry at those times they can only eat fruit.
Should I call SS?

Oh come on MrsTommyBanks, do you honestly think it's fine to take a 4 year old out in the middle of the night, when it's cold, to walk 2 to 3 miles? Ridiculous. It's got nothing to do with being EE. It's totally irresponsible at best and damaging for the little child.

If your post is a wind up, I've taken the bait!

I don't see an issue with leaving the 10 yo alone.
It's weird as fuck though taking a 4 yo for walks several times a night regardless of the weather.

Not cruel it’s cultural differences and if the children seem well kept and fed what’s the issue

Expat here who has been an expat in several different countries and I can say that in my experience strict bedtime routines and early nights are very much not part of many cultures. Where I live now kids go to bed when they're tired and get up when they're awake and nap when they want to during the day. Everyone naps after lunch, adults included (just because it's nice to - not as part of a routine,they just curl up when they're tired and go to sleep!) Nap often lasts 1 - 2.5 hours and so nighttime sleeping isn't such a big deal as everyone knows they can have a sleep during the day. Personally I find relaxed attitudes to sleep and lack of traditional British bath-and-bed/naptime routines to be refreshing and beneficial to all involved. Parents have no battles with children who aren't tired yet, children aren't forced into bed when they don't want to be and so don't get upset, children often have a lovely lie in with their parents because they weren't forced into bed some insanely early hour like 6 or 7 (which is a good couple of hours before they'd even be eating dinner where I am now!) Nothing weird about your neighbours behaviour. If I were you I'd consider it a good excuse to learn about another culture and maybe see what you can learn from it I have learned so much since being an expat and I have found it to have wholeheartedly benefitted my whole family.

I think the boy should be tucked up at home. If he can't sleep its making disturbed sleep the norm. If he's waking up he might have fallen back to sleep if left alone. I think it's a bad pattern to fall into. That's if she's not waking him.

It’s one thing to not have set bedtime routines, to nap in the day, to be relaxed about sleeping patterns - but if the mother and child are falling asleep on park benches in the middle of the night in the cold then their sleeping patterns are clearly up the whazoo and they should both be at home in bed.

It’s very strange especially park bench story. You said that your neighbour told your wife herself about it but could it be some misunderstanding due to her English? Sometimes it happens.
Would it be 11pm I would say that she’s taking a child for a walk before bedtime to relax. Normal thing in some EE countries especially on holidays when child spends lots of time watching TV during the day and doesn’t need to go to school tomorrow. Leaving 10 years old at home for a short while would be seen as normal in some EE countries as well. But leaving 10 years old at night, going out several times with 4 years old including 1 and 2 pm, sleeeping on the park bench??? Very weird.
And do dogs need to go out several time at night? ( I’m not a dog person so don’t know)
I would mention it to school gently. Her youngest could have problem with sleep and she might be unsure what to do.