Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think late-term abortion rules may need tightening up?

999 replies

FestiveNut · 23/12/2018 09:11

Should people be able to abort healthy fetuses in a low risk pregnancy past 20 weeks gestation?

I read a very sad story concerning this earlier. I considered myself pro-choice in all circumstances but this thread has caused me to question that.

Should the threshold be lowered?

OP posts:
MsLucyLastic · 25/12/2018 20:35

CosmicCanary - Cards for kittens and several other posters have suggested they agree with abortion to term for any reason or none.

Still, if you want to call me names again, go right ahead. It says way more about you than me. As does your inability to read the thread thoroughly, to the point that posters who are pro-choice to term have had to correct you.

Please don't aim any further comments at me. I find you rude and abusive.

Sakura7 · 25/12/2018 20:37

MsLucyLastic Totally agree, well said. There are some really extreme views here which thankfully are not representative of the wider public.

CosmicCanary Several posters have stated that abortion up to full term should be available for any reason. For that to happen the limit obviously has to be raised and clearly they support such a change.

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 20:39

The reality is that people are uncomfortable with the procedure because there is (what most people.consider) a fully formed baby in there that has to be killed.

First of all no one is killing babies, pack it in with the emotive language bollocks.

You have no qualms about killing it in the womb if the mother decides thats what she wants because you believe that it has no intrinsic value unless the mother confers it unconsciously by her feelings about it.

Precisely. It's her baby to decide to carry or not, it's the only measure of value of that baby's worth (not an easy pill to swallow I know but it's how it is)

Anyone who has been pregnant will know it is both a part of you and yet separate, it will take needs from your body. That's just the way it works, I'm sorry you think it's unfair.

I don't think pregnancy is unfair Confused

Most people would personally be deeply uncomfortable about performing a late term abortion which is partly why it's not reasonable to expect it is provided universally.

Many doctors actually don't and if people object to abortions who work in an abortion clinic then they need to get another job. Doctors objecting (or not objecting) to abortions has zero bearance on the pro choice stance

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 20:41

@Neweternal I think the universal pro choice stance is that the line is drawn once the baby can live independently of the mother ie after pregnancy, once the woman has given birth. That's when a baby delivered is considered a patient, a living human, and is probably the only line that can ever be drawn WRT this issue

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 20:44

IHaveBrilloHair thanks for sharing that on what can be a venomous post. I would ask you to go into detail but actually fe that you'd just be feeding the prolifers spite so out of respect I won't x

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 20:45

Incidentally is anyone actively campaigning to raise the abortion limit in the UK? I doubt it! But it's fun for anti-choicers to pretend there are isn't it?

A question to those who think 24 weeks is fine but no any higher - why? What makes the difference, to a point where the foetuses life is more important than the mother's choice? Not a trick question but curious to understand the answers.

MsLucyLastic · 25/12/2018 20:47

Oh and Cosmic, I would not call anyone who has had an abortion a baby killer. Some of us manage to be able to argue our point of view in generalistic and hypothetical terms, about a general group, without ever dreaming of resorting to personal insults.

CosmicCanary · 25/12/2018 21:02

Ok I'm not trying to be controversial but with right up to birth why should woman not be allowed to change their mind after birth, due to disability or domestic violence or she simply does want to be a mother?

AFTER BIRTH. The baby is then born not relient on the women so a person in its own right.
How many babies are aborted when the womans water has gone? When the head is birthing?

STOP with the hyperbole it makes you look desperate.

CosmicCanary · 25/12/2018 21:05

hypothetical is the key word.
You use the absolute extreme to try and push your point.
More babies are left/dumped to die after they are born than are aborted at full term that is a fact. Yet you talk as if past 24 weeks or full term abotions are common place. STRAWMAN ARGUMENT.

CardsforKittens · 25/12/2018 21:07

why should woman not be allowed to change their mind after birth

This question isn't relevant to the discussion of termination of pregnancy. Termination necessarily takes place prior to delivery.

ElonMask · 25/12/2018 21:07

I don't think pregnancy is unfair confused

Well you do if you use language like forced to describe the natural state of being pregnant when you don't want to be. It's like saying I'm forced to have 5 fingers to me.

First of all no one is killing babies, pack it in with the emotive language bollocks.

You can call them what you like, and appeal to the law (when it suits you I note) but you must know that the distinction you draw between a foetus and a baby does not persuade people that at e.g. 35 weeks the mother can request the state kill it. This is the sticking point. It is not something fundamentally different on one side of the skin than the other. Peoples instinct informs their feelings about it I think.

Sakura7 · 25/12/2018 21:19

Gunpowder - I don't think it's right to say that the universal pro-choice position is abortion up to birth. That is an extreme view. Someone who is ok with abortion up to a certain limit is pro-choice (unless it's something ridiculously low like 6 weeks). The vast vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester, there really is no reason not to get it done in a reasonable time, aside from medical reasons which of course have to be treated differently.

As for why anyone would have issues with abortion after 24 weeks, isn't it obvious? During pregnancy a foetus develops into a baby. In the latter stages you have a fully formed baby and to kill it is immoral to the vast majority of people. I absolutely believe abortion must be available but there have to be sensible regulations, which most countries have.

Neweternal · 25/12/2018 21:20

@GunpowderGelatine

I think the universal pro choice stance is that the line is drawn once the baby can live independently of the mother ie after pregnancy, once the woman has given birth. That's when a baby delivered is considered a patient, a living human, and is probably the only line that can ever be drawn WRT this issue

Yes but if it's full term the child CAN survive out with the womb. Therefore the only difference is the child hasn't made it through the birthing canal. So you're saying as long as the baby is in your stomach you have right to do what you like and hold it hostage to your whims when if it was just induced it would live.

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 21:22

No @ElonMask there is NO killing of babies going on. If you know someone who has murdered a baby please call the police.

And I'm beginning to think your posts are satirical now using the analogy of having 5 fingers Confused

First of all we are all (mostly) born with five fingers. And having five fingers doesn't lead to making a monumental decision that will affect the mental, financial and social status of you and another person. It won't lead to you having a life altering event which can be dangerous and traumatic. Also, five fingers aren't something only women have, women who already deal with injustice and their bodies being policed every day.

1/10

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 21:26

So you're saying as long as the baby is in your stomach you have right to do what you like and hold it hostage to your whims when if it was just induced it would live.

A pernickety point but babies grow in wombs not stomachs.

Well you've used far fancier and emotive language than is necessary (hold it hostage - pfft pregnant women aren't terrorists) but yes that's my general stance. While it is dependent on a woman her life and choices 100% trump the foetus/baby.

Apologies if I suggested pro choice to term was considered the general pro choice stance - you're right it's not. What I meant was I think pro-choicers agree that to a point - be it 20 weeks, 24 or 40 -the woman's life and choice takes precedent over the foetus/baby that is growing inside her.

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 21:27

Yes but if it's full term the child CAN survive out with the womb. Therefore the only difference is the child hasn't made it through the birthing canal. So you're saying as long as the baby is in your stomach you have right to do what you like and hold it hostage to your whims when if it was just induced it would live.

The point you seem to be missing is that most women who have non medical terminations do so because they don't want to be a mother. How will induction help with this? Are you offering to take the baby on?

CosmicCanary · 25/12/2018 21:31

Gun you are 100% correct. I will not be engaging with that poster again.

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 21:31

Come on FruitCider don't you know by now women's feelings don't matter, we're just here to bear the precious children that all the anti choice folk are fighting to adopt. Oh wait...

Sakura7 · 25/12/2018 21:33

Fruitcider why can't they have an abortion within the legal timeframe? Failing that, induction will result in a live birth but the woman doesn't have to have anything to do with the baby.

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 21:35

Sakura read the whole thread for goodness sake. Some women can't access abortion in the legal time.

Sakura7 · 25/12/2018 21:35

Also there is ONE clear anti-choicer on this thread, not plural. Stop calling pro-choice posters here anti-choice because they don't agree with your extreme position.

Sakura7 · 25/12/2018 21:36

I have read the thread, I just don't agree with you Fruitcider

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 21:39

I have read the thread, I just don't agree with you Fruitcider

Don't agree with what? You clearly haven't read it in detail otherwise you'd understand I work with women who sometimes cannot access abortion before the legal time limit. I'm
not sure how you can disagree with that.

Neweternal · 25/12/2018 21:39

@GunpowderGelatine Is there not a waiting list to adopt healthy new born babies? Adopting an older children you can understand the reluctance as some children the damage is already done by very dysfunctional parents and have bonding issues. This is a much bigger job for new parents to take on.

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 21:42

induction will result in a live birth but the woman doesn't have to have anything to do with the baby

Yeah because giving birth and never seeing the baby again is just a walk in the park. The robo-uteruses don't have feelings or mental health to worry about Hmm also do you think it's like click and collect at hospitals where you can choose to take your order home or not ? If you don't want your baby, the midwives don't swoop in to take baby to fairies in the woods to be raised. I worked for the NHS and do you know what happened on the odd occasion where a woman cane in in labour with no idea she was pregnant - she had to take baby home. It was just assumed, and she'd have to be prepared somehow. A social services referral may have been made but with a view to support mum not take the baby into care. You can't just drop a baby on the steps of an orphanage like in the cartoons