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Original poster

To think late-term abortion rules may need tightening up?

999 replies

FestiveNut · 23/12/2018 09:11

Should people be able to abort healthy fetuses in a low risk pregnancy past 20 weeks gestation?

I read a very sad story concerning this earlier. I considered myself pro-choice in all circumstances but this thread has caused me to question that.

Should the threshold be lowered?

OP posts:
GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 18:56

@ElonMask have you been on the sherry? Your post makes no sense. I quite clearly stated I WOULDN'T trust anyone else with decision about my body, and nor should any other woman. Especially when in the vulnerable situation of being pregnant and full of doubt.

MsLucyLastic · 25/12/2018 19:07

Meanwhile, back on Planet Reality, women have terminated for a variety of reasons, including finances, and capitalist societies will never be caring, so thankfully we have access to safe, legal abortion till 24 weeks and also because forcing women who don't want to be pregnant to remain so is fucking barbaric.

To an extent I agree. But it is also reality that, despite what several posters are advocating here, abortion to term for non-medical reasons, is viewed with revulsion by most of society, and the preserve of extremist women.

Sadly, this extremist approach can end up working against the push to reframe abortion as a medical rather than legal issue. Because the law will be seen to be needed to protect against those, who wouldn't have a problem with terminating a 39 week gestation foetus. The same law that sometimes makes obtaining an abortion a protracted and more distressing issue at present.

For those who state that they would have killed themselves of unable to obtain an abortion prior to 24 weeks, the law already allows a termination past 24 weeks to happen. Because the woman's life is at risk.

I also am baffled that arguments about children. growing up in less than ideal circumstances, seem to imply that the answer is for these children to be terminated. Lots of people who have grown up in such circumstances go on to make great lives for themselves. I have never heard any wish they hadn't been born in the first place.

Surely any failings of the social care system shouldn't be addressed by simply reducing the "burden" on it, by aborting late term babies? We can't be THAT desperate to pay less tax, surely?

ElonMask · 25/12/2018 19:09

I quite clearly stated I WOULDN'T trust anyone else with decision about my body, and nor should any other woman.

On a personal level you trust other people with decisions about your body all the time. On a societal level you abide by the laws that dictate what you can use your body for and what you can put in it.

You're just exaggerating.

MsLucyLastic · 25/12/2018 19:11

No body is suggesting abortion should be banned..what they are telling you is that the law is fine as it is and they are against giving anyone the power to decide to abort to term for any reason. You find this monstrous but your out on a limb and out of whack with the majority of the country..and it's a democracy with a nationalised health service so take your outrage elsewhere. And stop with the pretence that every one is woman hater except you.

Absolutely agree. It is called being able to see nuance not absolutes. But extremists struggle with that.

Shmithecat · 25/12/2018 19:12

I just cannot get my head round why anyone thinks that it's their business when and why a woman chooses to terminate, especially at such a stage that is very very rare anyway. If YOU don't agree with it, then don't YOU have one. Bugger off and leave other women to make their own choices. It affects you in no way whatsoever.

limitedperiodonly · 25/12/2018 19:15

It's not a wise idea to argue with ElonMask at any time, let alone this time on Christmas Day when there are turkey sandwiches to be munched and The Goonies to be watched.

MsLucyLastic · 25/12/2018 19:16

I am still waiting for someone who agrees with abortion to term for any reason to reply to the following questions I asked earlier:

*If a child was born and remained attached via the umbilical cord to the placenta within its mother's body, then surely (according the logic of those who argue that being joined to the mother means the child isn't a baby) it shouldn't be murder to end the life of the child at that point? It is still joined to the mother and receiving oxygen and nutrients via the placenta, after all, therefore is a part of her body. Therefore still a foetus.

And if the child isn't a foetus at this stage, why not? If it hasn't taken its first breath, it isn't independent of its mother. So surely terminating between it leaving the mother's body and the child taking its first breath is ok?*

Neweternal · 25/12/2018 19:20

@pointythings In a personal note I don't believe in abortion full stop if any reason even disability. However I have more empathy for someone having a severely disabled child as opposed to a healthy baby because you're fleeing abuse or financial circumstances etc. This is just a personal view.

CosmicCanary · 25/12/2018 19:22

I am still waiting for someone who agrees with abortion to term for any reason to reply to the following questions I asked earlier:

Outside of the womans body the child has the right to life.

However the question is stupid as whenever abortion is discussed idiots alway sight the most extreme never happened more than once in a decade instances as a reason to force women to give birth. Hmm

Aquilla · 25/12/2018 19:24

It's awful, OP.
What makes me sick is most have already had another abortion. Surely once is fucking enough?

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 19:25

On a personal level you trust other people with decisions about your body all the time

Do I? Who? Who do I trust in a way that is comparable to forcing me to have a child I don't want?

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 19:29

And why do people always trot on these threads thinking they're Kelly Clever Clogs with the "oh it can I murder a baby fresh from the womb, hmm, HMM?" As if it would ever happen IRL, and as if it has any bearing on an actual real life woman's body and dilemma. As of women a baby killing nutters just looking for their next hypothetical situation 🤦🏼‍♀️

But to answer your question @MsLucyLastic - there has to be a line somewhere and you're absolutely wrong that a baby with umbilical cord still attached is considered a foetus. It's not. But the line, I think most reasonable logical people would agree, would be when the mother is still considered as being pregnant. In your situation she is not pregnant.

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 19:29

There has been several incidence and stories where abortion has occurred and the baby survived.

Bollocks. I've worked for Marie Stopes, this never happens and hasn't for at least 20 years, unless termination is carried out by inducing labour because the foetus is not thought to be able to survive due to disability.

Usually they leave it until the baby dies which in my opinion is cruel and there has been cases where the child has been adopted without consulting the parents, this is obviously abroad.

Again this is a load of nonsense, unless the abortion is for medical reasons, and if the baby does attempt to breathe at birth it is offered comfort care by parents and nursing staff.

thebaronetofcockburn · 25/12/2018 19:31

What makes me sick is most have already had another abortion. Surely once is fucking enough?

Surely it's no one's business and surely it's better than forcing a person to have a child.

MsLucyLastic · 25/12/2018 19:31

CosmicCanary actually, before any law to do with health provision is changed, these are EXACTLY the scenarios discussed by ethics committees.

Of course the scenario I detailed doesn't happen...it is currently against the law! However, it is exactly the sort of grey area that would have to be considered prior to a legal change.

Us "idiots" who have worked within NHS service provision have zero interest in forcing women to give birth. That's why abortion should be provided on demand up to 24 weeks.

Sadly, past that point, all women will have to give birth, whether the foetus is alive or not, as a means of getting it out. That isn't "idiots" forcing birth. It is biology.

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 19:31

I find your arguments horrific and disturbing. You are flippantly saying there are many people whom it would have been better for everyone if they had never been born ? Is that right ?

I'm pretty sure I never said that anywhere you've made a rather large leap. I think you've drank too much sherry today 😉

FruitCider · 25/12/2018 19:32

So how do you feel if a baby is aborted alive?

Aborted foetuses for non medical reasons are not born alive, so your question is irrelevant.

GunpowderGelatine · 25/12/2018 19:33

@Neweternal so even in cases of rape or incest a non living being is more important than the woman? Why?

And if abortions were outlawed what would you have in place to support mothers being forced to have babies they otherwise wouldn't want, in ensuring their reasons for seeking an abortion were mitigated?

I think you also need to read the stories in your links - none are babies who are delivered and left to die.

ElonMask · 25/12/2018 19:33

Who do I trust in a way that is comparable to forcing me to have a child I don't want?

Someone (actually several highly skilled professionals) refusing to perform a morally objectionable procedure on your body, paid for by other people who are totally opposed to said procedure is not what most people understand by "forcing". You're out on a limb.

CosmicCanary · 25/12/2018 19:33

MsLucy

Hmm
brizzledrizzle · 25/12/2018 19:33

Aborted foetuses for non medical reasons are not born alive, so your question is irrelevant.

Not usually no, but I'm fairly sure I've heard of it happening on rare occasions.