To think late-term abortion rules may need tightening up?

[FestiveNut]

Should people be able to abort healthy fetuses in a low risk pregnancy past 20 weeks gestation?

I read a very sad story concerning this earlier. I considered myself pro-choice in all circumstances but this thread has caused me to question that.

Should the threshold be lowered?

Surely a live baby is better for a woman's mental health than a child she knew was put in a incinerator and deprived of life Clearly not.

It's irresponsible As if women skip into the abortion clinics.

We have a responsibility to the children we make And the day I see a campaign for the financial support of single parents headed by anti-choice supporters will be a cold day in hell.

If you can't handle it don't gwt pregnant, scared of getting pregnant? Don't have sex!!

Jesus Christ! Is that your only "advice?" Cos it's fucking stupid. And it reduces women to no more than incubators.

Also ...

CONTRACEPTION FAILS

Abortion can be traumatic, child birth is too but one is a positive thing, giving life. Unless the baby is unwanted. Because I would class my childhood with my mother, (who didn't want me) as traumatic. So much so, we haven't spoken for almost 30yrs.

People need to take off their rose tinted glasses. Life isn't always flowers and unicorns. It's not always going to end up magical once "mother" and baby meet.

And I hated being pregnant There is a fuck ton of space between hating pregnancy and wishing you weren't pregnant.

I hated both my first and second pregnancy (for different reasons), I will not give you the ins and outs, because that doesn't matter. But I adore my girls.

I didn't want to to be pregnant with my third. I did not want any more children. I asked the consultant to sterilize me when I had my section with dd2. They said no.

I fell pregnant a few months after my second dd was born because of inadequate contraceptive choices. My dr insisted on giving me the mini pill, and said I would be fine with it, especially as I was EBF dd. I am allergic to latex, so cannot use condoms (couldn't find latex free ones here for love nor money).

My feelings regarding that pregnancy went far beyond "hating". I cried constantly, I am pretty sure I had depression. I considered crashing my car hoping I'd miscarry. Honestly. I'd be driving and wonder how much damage it would do to hit a wall, a lamppost...how fast would I have to be going, how would I make sure I was impacted enough to cause a miscarriage? I'd not long learnt to drive so I could blame inexperience ... If I lived.

That was THE only thing stopping me. I didn't want to die. I didn't want to hurt my girls. But I was desperate. I prayed to see blood in the way that I prayed NOT to see blood when pregnant with my girls.

Not wanting to be pregnant is so far away from hating pregnancy. They are not even comparable, and thinking that women terminate pregnancy because they don't like it is short sighted, naive and judgemental. You think a woman terminates at 20+ weeks because she hates it? I terminated as soon as I could. That was at 9 weeks, and every single day agony waiting for that appointment.

You have NO idea unless you have lived it. It's not like the movies where you suddenly have a 'lightening moment" and unequivocally love that unborn child. It just isn't. It's soul destroying.

I believe many women conceal their pregnancies up to 24 weeks to avoid anyone (ie partners, parents) being able to pressurise them into terminating. They know once they hit 24 weeks, they're safe from this.

When arguing about abortion I think many pro-lifers forget NO ONE wants an abortion, no one chooses that decision for their life. If everyone had ideal circumstances every single time they discovered they were pregnant, then that would be amazing. But this is reality and rarely is the situation you're in ever ideal, but you have to deal with the cards life has dealt you. It's a very personal decision to make and it can affect you hugely. Before you go bashing another woman for having one - for whatever reason - consider how they themselves must be feeling, consider how they're punishing themselves for making that decision and think instead of how you can support them regardless of your own views and beliefs. I would love to personally support anyone going through one right now or anyone that has done in the past and will do in the future. Kindness is so strong and so necessary. Love to all of you and happy Christmas.

I could not have an abortion at any stage but agree other women should choose for themselves up to 22 weeks unless medical reason. Babies can live at 23/24 weeks. If healthy baby and 23 week plus then give birth and give baby up for adoption. If you have abortion at 23 week plus it is lime giving birth anyway.

It is really unhelpful to conflate pre-term birth with late abortion.

The vast majority of babies born prior to 24 weeks do not survive and those who do generally have life altering or life limiting disabilities. Bearing in mind a pregnancy is estimated within two week window, the one who do well are likely to have been two weeks further on in gestation. For every perfectly formed miracle at 23 weeks there are a dozen more who are not that way.

Late abortion is something rarely considered lightly and to force a
Mum to carry a baby to term who will likely die before birth or shortly after is the cruellest thing to do.

@Neweternal

I honestly don't understand. Surely a live baby is better for a woman's mental health than a child she knew was put in a incinerator and deprived of life?

Women don't put babies in incinerators. HTH. And no it wouldn't be easier for many at all. I think you know fuck all TBH.

The womb on sticks can be the same argument men use about paying child support for 18 years for a child they didn't want. It's irresponsible! We have a responsibility to the children we make.

Hahahaha

You're taking the piss?

Poor ickle menz being forced to be fathers.

OR they could use protection or even abstain 😱 I know men not getting their dicks wet is a horrible concept to some but it really is the best way to not ensure you have a child.

TBH it tells me all I need to know about you when you think it's more tragic that a man has to pay for a child he created than a woman has to have a baby she doesn't want.

the woman would have the choice to no longer be pregnant and the baby has a chance to live. But, as you can see from some of the replies on the thread, this isn’t good enough for them. It HAS to be abortion.

Because this route still forces the woman to be a mother to a child for whatever reason she doesn't feel able to nurture. Children by choice, not by chance. Adoption still ends up with the woman being a mother, which she doesn't want.

Also life isn't an episode of Friends, there aren't droves of lovely rich couples waiting to adopt babies. The care system is overloaded and understaffed. But I'm assuming all the anti-choice people on here foster unwanted children or would be willing to do so if, like they desire, women were forced to give birth to babies they don't want?

Late abortion is something rarely considered lightly and to force a
Mum to carry a baby to term who will likely die before birth or shortly after is the cruellest thing to do.

Absolutely no one is advocating this here. I think late-term abortion for medical reasons is so, so necessary to prevent further harm and suffering.

This thread has gone entirely to the theoretical in that we are discussing terminations that are not legally sanctioned nor performed in any country but possibly China (and even there it’s not entirely easy to find a women’s clinic these days that would do it for non-medical reasons)

Getting a bit sick of seeing people who have legitimate issues with late term abortion being called anti-choice and anti-women. I am very much pro-choice and spent many hours campaigning for the Yes side in the Irish referendum, regularly getting abused and called a baby murderer while I was at it. I think both extremes are appalling; an outright ban is absolutely inhumane to women, but late term abortion is the killing of a viable baby and that is just wrong. Women in other developed countries manage just fine with lower cut-offs than the UK has. Of course provisions have to be made for cases where there are medical issues or risks to the mother and nobody but the crazy pro-lifers would have an issue with that.

Ultimately if someone doesn't want to be pregnant, they have plenty of time to legally have an abortion in the earlier stages, and thankfully that's what the vast majority do.

@GunpowderGelatine I wasn't feeling sorry for men at all paying child support. I'm just saying we all have to take responsibility for our actions. How on earth can a woman feel better about destroying a healthy full term baby to giving life? How can a woman feel better under these circumstances aborting?

My other issue with late term abortions is it appears from post and people who I know that have abortions it's often the man pushing for the abortion. The could be used as a form of abuse when a woman is already vulnerable being pregnant, we all know the fact abuse often begins in pregnancy.

A lot of v premature babies are not healthy. Every time they try to lower the limit the debate ends up convincing reasonable people not to, and massive campaigns. Before legal abortion many women died.
If you are anti abortion that's your right, no one is forcing you
Late abortion is no picnic but is needed in some cases. People rarely go to the limit but it takes time to arrange. If you close that window you disenfranchise women at an earlier stage, when they may have just had results, or some family crisis...

Ultimately if someone doesn't want to be pregnant, they have plenty of time to legally have an abortion in the earlier stages, and thankfully that's what the vast majority do

Did you not read my post?

Only yesterday I was comforting a 26 weeks pregnant lady, first time in custody, arrived on Christmas Eve. She cannot have an abortion under currently rules, to me it seems abhorrent to make her carry this baby to term with the physical health conditions this baby will likely have.

I believe many women conceal their pregnancies up to 24 weeks to avoid anyone (ie partners, parents) being able to pressurise them into terminating.

Many? How can 'many' even conceal a pregnancy to that length of time, unless she's already quite obese, particularly if it's not a first baby.

@FruitCider on the other hand curved balls can be the making for some. There are worse things that can happen than bringing a child into the world.

curved balls can be the making for some

What a great argument for advocating forced birth. Let's make these women carry to term because it might redeem them. Pass me a sick bucket.

There are worse things that can happen than bringing a child into the world.

In your opinion. Plenty of women ended their lives before abortion was legal as they preferred death to having a child.

Fruitcider - yes, it does seem awful that the lady who is 26 weeks will have to carry to term. I think we have all heard tales of women where we wish for their sake they were under the 24 week limit.

But ultimately, society as a whole has decided that terminating viable foetusus is worse than a woman carrying that foetus to term. Obviously, individual cases will make the law seem like an ass on occasion. But given that most of the population is clearly in agreement that there must be a cut off point, then there will always be women just over that which we feel sorry for.

In the wider picture, is late term abortion for non medical reasons the best answer? Surely, the societal, emotional, and practical support which these women need, should be provided by a caring society? No woman should have to abort due to finances or fears that no-one will help her. Women should not have to fear by tied to an abuser forever because she has his child.

It feels sometimes that late term abortion would remove the "problem" instead of society providing the answers. And, as one of the richest economies in the world, we can afford to provide for and support these women.

It almost feels like being able to have a late term abortion for non medical reasons would be a bit of a "get out of jail free" card for society.

I'm not especially convinced that 'society as a whole' produces legislation or policy that serves the needs of vulnerable women.

Surely, the societal, emotional, and practical support which these women need, should be provided by a caring society? No woman should have to abort due to finances or fears that no-one will help her. Women should not have to fear by tied to an abuser forever because she has his child.

Meanwhile, back on Planet Reality, women have terminated for a variety of reasons, including finances, and capitalist societies will never be caring, so thankfully we have access to safe, legal abortion till 24 weeks and also because forcing women who don't want to be pregnant to remain so is fucking barbaric.

There are worse things that can happen than bringing a child into the world.

Worse things than being forced to endure a pregnancy and birth of a baby that you can't keep, with the baby growing up into an adult knowing they were born to a mother in prison who could simply not taking gear? I can't think of much worse actually. It can't get much worse for the mother or the foetus at this point.