To think late-term abortion rules may need tightening up?

[FestiveNut]

Should people be able to abort healthy fetuses in a low risk pregnancy past 20 weeks gestation?

I read a very sad story concerning this earlier. I considered myself pro-choice in all circumstances but this thread has caused me to question that.

Should the threshold be lowered?

Both are chilling and come across as either naive, disturbed or that they have just stopped thinking too soon

This is interesting juxtaposed with FruitCider's example. It seems to me that it's the so-called middle position in which people stop thinking too soon.

MsLucyLastic
I think people all have their different lines.

For me I would describe my personal view for my body as generally towards pro life so would opt not to have an abortion for any reason other than medical grounds/sexual assault. I'm also pro choice because I don't believe other women should have their choices limited due to my views. That's why I don't think the debate is pro life vs pro choice. It's pro choice or anti choice.

To me, 'early as possible and late as necessary' could mean different things to different people and with that comes messiness. (E.g. late as necessary to me means medically necessary, not 'I don't fancy this any more', but then the likelihood of the latter happening is slim to barely existent)
Whilst anti choice promoters will talk hysterically about women murdering babies at 39 weeks gestation, the reality is nowhere close to that. Could my view theoretically mean that a woman may feel the need to abort at 30+ weeks, yes. Does that make me feel horrifically uncomfortable? Of course. Does my discomfort over something mean I should actively seek to limit other women from the appropriate advice, medical care, safe and legal abortion? No.

As with all ethical issues people find their own lines in the sand. I find extreme positions that don't account for the complexities to be quite outputting.

Fruitcider - nice story. Did you hear the ones about the women I have had to provide substantial psychiatric input to, as they were suicidal over terminations they had had? Yet no way would I use the numerous women whose self harm cuts I have cleaned, or who have taken overdoses due to guilt, to try and advocate to ban abortion. Because such cases are extremes. And working in such an area increases your exposure to such extremes.

Not many babies put up for adoption would experience your horror stories. After all, vanishingly few women would proceed with a pregnancy to term that they didn't want. According to the more forceful on this thread - the vast majority of them would have aborted before 20 weeks. Or at least that is what the stats show and the "abort to term" posters have maintained would still happen.

Likewise, not many women who have a termination would react to it as the women who I looked after did. Because our professions exposed us to extremes. Surely it is obvious that these extremes lead to confirmation bias, unless we are aware of the polarisation of experiences we encounter?

cardsforkittens - of course you think it is those who take the middle ground who are hard of thinking. What else would you think?

Have a lovely Xmas all.

Fruitcider - nice story

Nice story...really?

I pretty much agree completely with maisy, i may well completely agree but im covering myself in case she says something silly

Have a lovely Xmas all

Now this I definitely agree with

Likewise, not many women who have a termination would react to it as the women who I looked after did. Because our professions exposed us to extremes. Surely it is obvious that these extremes lead to confirmation bias, unless we are aware of the polarisation of experiences we encounter?

I've comforted women after terminations that they later regret or have mixed emotions over. That doesn't mean I'd want choice taken away. I think it's essential that the choice is there for women that feel they need it. You are right - the vast majority of abortions are performed before 12 weeks. However we both work at extreme ends of the spectrum like you have acknowledged. Only 77 children were adopted last year - that does not however mean that the number of children in care has fallen, its risen rapidly. And I believe (though I'm not going to go digging for the statistics on Christmas Eve) this is due to the lack of healthy babies to adopt.

It seems to me that it's the so-called middle position in which people stop thinking too soon

This from someone whose seems unaware of what a late-term abortion actually involves

MaisyPops - it isn't hysterical or anti-choice to argue against abortion to term for any reason.

Just because very few women would abort at 39 weeks for shits and giggles, doesn't mean they don't exist.

"Vanishingly few" women commit sexual offences, this does not mean we don't need laws to prosecute those who do.

Laws exist precisely TO address those in society who do not follow a conventional moral code. To argue these aren't needed "because.....women" just doesn't stand up to logic or evidence.

But yes, to all a good night! I’m also pleased that not too many overt pro-lifers are here

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer
So far so good on the silly front, though it could happen after spending a good amount of time 'just going to do another couple of presents' to get a break from house guests.mumsnet, peace and wine

As with most ethical dilemmas, no solution will please everyone so logic (to me) is to aim for the middle ground that affords most people the capacity to make the right choice for them, without impinging on other people's freedoms.

@fruitycider adoption numbers are falling for good reasons. Care numbers are rising but most stays in Care are very temporary. This isn’t a bad thing.

So far so good on the silly front

Absolutely

Have a fantastic Christmas 🎄

Supporting abortion to term is not about bodily autonomy. If it was then the posters advocating for a ‘woman’s right to choose’ up until full term would be satisfied with the later term baby being born alive and taken away - the woman would have the choice to no longer be pregnant and the baby has a chance to live. But, as you can see from some of the replies on the thread, this isn’t good enough for them. It HAS to be abortion. That sounds more like a pro-abortion position than a pro-choice one imo.

Oops! I was about 2 pages behind when I posted. Merry Christmas everyone

That sounds more like a pro-abortion position than a pro-choice one imo.

um, pro-abortion and pro-choice are the same thing.

you see it's the woman's right to choose whether or not she continues with a pregnancy.

This is one of the great contradictions of feminism. We’re supposed to be equal to men and equally capable, responsible and intelligent.

Yet when it comes to abortion and the law expects women to take responsibility and deal with an unwanted pregnancy within the time limit, suddenly we turn into incapable little waifs who are incapable of planning their family within the (very generous) legal time allowed.

I don't think I have the right to tell anyone what they can do with their bodies. We have no idea why a woman would have a post 20wk termination (and I doubt that it would be "to party" as is so commonly believed), so we should mind our own business.

@Augusta2012 you have a gross misunderstanding of feminism if you think it's having the same things as men.

And I don't really understand you're second paragraph it makes no sense

@Birdsgottafly Not every unwanted baby get adopted. And why should a woman be forced to continue a pregnancy for no personal gain? We aren't incubators.

@ruflro - your post on Sun at 9:40 - spot on!! Well said!

I find this thread disturbing. When you're a catholic you're taught the baby comes before the mother no matter what even if the mother dies which is an extreme but some of the stuff on here is the other end of the spectrum and then some. I think the kinder thing for most women would be to have the child. Abortion can be traumatic, child birth is too but one is a positive thing, giving life.

Yeah bollocks to the trauma of the women who has a child she now has to give up. We're just wombs in sticks do t you know

you have a gross misunderstanding of feminism if you think it's having the same things as men.

But the whole idea of feminism is the belief that women are just as capable and responsible as men. And if that’s the case then surely we would have the wearwithal to arrange an abortion in the 5 and a half months it’s legal?

We all live in a legal framework where we’re supposed to take responsibility for ourselves to ensure we operate within that framework so the law isn’t broken. We do it every day, by not punching our next door neighbour or kicking our dog or shoplifting. Taking responsibility for yourself to get an abortion while still legal is just another version of this.

The argument for termination up until birth generally hinges on the argument that women are not capable of managing their fertility in a timely and responsible way. Which really to me is the exact opposite of feminism is.

And I don't really understand you're second paragraph it makes no sense

Pot, meet kettle.

Anyway, as others have said, outside of MN termination up until birth is an extreme view with very little support and it’s generally seen as nutjob territory.

Both anti abortion and the termination up to birth crowd are dogmatic extremists. Most people are much more pragmatic.

There’s very little point arguing with extremists, and every time this debate comes up the same few posters jump on it and are so aggressive towards other posters they create an echo chamber where the only possible view is termination up to birth is acceptable. But real life is not MN and the overwhelming majority of the population are against longer limits. And no amount of tantrumming on the internet is going to change the fact that most people don’t take termination up to birth seriously and regard it as something whackjobs in the darkest corners of the internet come up with.

@GunpowderGelatine I honestly don't understand. Surely a live baby is better for a woman's mental health than a child she knew was put in a incinerator and deprived of life? The womb on sticks can be the same argument men use about paying child support for 18 years for a child they didn't want. It's irresponsible! We have a responsibility to the children we make.