To think late-term abortion rules may need tightening up?

[FestiveNut]

Should people be able to abort healthy fetuses in a low risk pregnancy past 20 weeks gestation?

I read a very sad story concerning this earlier. I considered myself pro-choice in all circumstances but this thread has caused me to question that.

Should the threshold be lowered?

MoreDoll
I'm confused as to how you can say there is no baby and no killing - that is the whole point of abortion isn't it?

Legally and scientifically, it is a foetus until birth. It only becomes a "baby" if we assign that particular value to it. That is a personal, emotional decision and has nothing to do with either the law or science.

So if one is pregnant and is happy about it then it's OK to tell people "I'm having a baby" but really one should be saying "yes there's a foetus in there"

The semantics on here are crazy and such strident viewpoints on both sides make me feel very uncomfortable.

So if one is pregnant and is happy about it then it's OK to tell people "I'm having a baby" but really one should be saying "yes there's a foetus in there"

Absolutely. Because scientifically, it IS a foetus. If you want to assign the value of "baby" to it then great. But it is a personal decision and one you don't have the right to make for others.

This thread to me summarises the problems we have in the UK at the moment - people not respecting the views of others, calling all Brexiteers stupid or Tories wicked.

People can be really kind good individuals and think a baby is present and should not be killed in the womb. It doesn't mean they hate women. They just have a different view from others.

I agree with you to an extent. The calling people evil and wicked if they don’t agree with you.

But I disagree with you that it’s comparable to Brexit or political parties where there is a great deal of polarisation and many people support both sides.

There really is no polarisation of opinion on abortion. The overwhelming majority of people support abortion being available within the current time limits or with a slightly lower limit. Longer time limits or a complete ban are both only supported by 6% each.

Mumsnet is a peculiarity because there are so many posters on here who advocate for abortion available to term.

It’s a bit irrelevant anyway. No government is either going to ban abortions or increase the limits on it because both of them are electoral suicide. Nor will the limits be lowered slightly either. No political party is going to want to open up a very controversial can of worms like that, especially not at the moment. It’s a debate which is very hazardous for politicians but brings little benefit, the debate isn’t going to be opened up unless there really is some sort of new knowledge which makes it a more pressing issue.

I'm confused as to how you can say there is no baby and no killing - that is the whole point of abortion isn't it?

No, abortion is the termination of an unwanted or unviable pregnancy.

Either you think it's okay to torture women or you don't. There's no grey area. Either women have rights over their own bodies or they don't. There is no justification to deny abortion to any woman for any reason.

Either women have rights over their own bodies or they don't. There is no justification to deny abortion to any woman for any reason.

This

If you have a "abortion pill via the internet" at home termination after 24 weeks you're prosecuted. Remember that story a few years back and it was someone who had an affair bought pills over the net and hide the body. I believe she was sentenced. I'm trying to google it.

Moredoll
I am well aware of that. But the foetus is not removed whilst it is alive ergo it is killed / terminated.
I don't agree with a lot of what Ann Furedi says but she is at least brutally honest about what abortion is.

I think this is one area where a lot of mn is out of step with the majority of the public. I don't know anyone in rl who supports abortion up till term for any or no reason. Everyone I know would be horrified at the thought of a 40 week baby being killed, regardless of reason. Late abortions are rare precisely because of the law in place. I would bet my house that figures are a lot higher in other countries where these restrictions aren't in place. The law is fine as it is, and I'd possibly vote for them to be tightened more.

@Xenia

This thread to me summarises the problems we have in the UK at the moment - people not respecting the views of others, calling all Brexiteers stupid or Tories wicked.

People can be really kind good individuals and think a baby is present and should not be killed in the womb. It doesn't mean they hate women. They just have a different view from others.

The law already does say what you can and cannot do with your uterus eg you cannot have an abortion in most cases after 24 weeks as the baby prevails over your choice to kill it.

Good post. Totally agree.

@moredoll

Typical emotive statement from an anti-abortionist. There is no baby. There is no killing.

What the hell am I reading?

As a pp said, what the hell do you THINK it is if it's not a baby? You are simply not making sense now. I am OK with abortion in the early stages, less of a fan between 16 and 24 weeks, but still understand that some may need it. But the ones who are pro-choice/pro-abortion, are coming across as way more rabid, maniacal, and OTT than anyone who wants to keep the abortion limit at 24 or less.

The longer the 24 week limit stays, the better.

@MsLucyTastic

What I also don't understand, is HOW any medic would ever agree to perform a late term abortion for non medical reasons, when it goes against the first medical ethic of first do no harm? If a medic knows that a 30 week old, healthy foetus is viable, I can't get my head around how medical ethics would allow an abortion in such cases?

Yeah this. ^ I think any medical professional who aborts at 8 or 9 months in, needs striking off for good. And never allowed in any profession again that involves caring for people.

I seriously cannot believe what I am reading (from some) on this thread. I have never heard such weird and bizarre shit. I am seriously worried about the people who are 'pro-abortion at full term.' It's not normal to think this is OK.

@KoshoMangsho

As the mother of a 26 weeker, my ‘baby’ was a foetus till he was born.

You can try and convince yourself it's not a baby til it's born, but that it doesn't make it true.

@irnbruforlife

I think this is one area where a lot of mn is out of step with the majority of the public. I don't know anyone in rl who supports abortion up till term for any or no reason. Everyone I know would be horrified at the thought of a 40 week baby being killed, regardless of reason. Late abortions are rare precisely because of the law in place. I would bet my house that figures are a lot higher in other countries where these restrictions aren't in place. The law is fine as it is, and I'd possibly vote for them to be tightened more.

This is spades. In real life, you would not find a SOUL who agreed that terminating a pregnancy/baby at 39-40 weeks is a good idea. This is the weird parallel universe of mumsnet though, and people do love to post outrageous things for attention. Nobody thinks it's OK to abort a baby just when it's full term. Not a soul!

Late term abortions after 24 weeks for NON MEDICAL REASONS are NOT available in the UK

This is what’s annoying me about the thread. Many PPs are seemingly under the impression that this is a thing? It’s not as “late as necessary” as the current law stands. No one is agitating to change this afaik.

I do think viability is linked to the cutoff, there is some concern that as we get more and more premature babies surviving earlier, that less doctors will be willing to terminate a healthy fetus past 20 weeks or so. Legislating a new cutoff date though would be too politically difficult, and not something I think would be a worthwhile use of time or effort.

Orlande - I agree with you that it would be dreadful for the baby to go home with a psychopathic mother. Hence why the baby was removed from her at birth and placed with foster parents pending adoption.

this is one area where a lot of mn is out of step with the majority of the public. I don't know anyone in rl who supports abortion up till term for any or no reason. Everyone I know would be horrified at the thought of a 40 week baby being killed, regardless of reason. Late abortions are rare precisely because of the law in place.
I am horrified at the idea of an abortion very late. But then I think the decision for all late terms abortions must be a horrendous situation for a woman to find herself. I cannot begin to contemplate what a woman must be going through to feel that is the best option. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be to carry a baby and bond with the baby only to find there are medical issues. And suddenly the fact I have an opinion fades in comparison to the poor woman in an unimaginable situation.

Nobody is going to think 'I'll try being pregnant, do 8 months and get bored of the idea', which leaves me back at the point of what trauma must a woman be experiencing.

Anyway, abortions past 24 weeks are very rare, probably to do with the current law and part because 6 months is a long time to be pregnant and most people would just abort on a whim anyway.

I support the current laws. I cannot support people who ignore current % about existing abortions and make up deliberately emotive stories about babies being aborted at 39 weeks on a whim whilst throwing terms like murder around for added emotional battering. The current laws offer all women the choice to a point. Sadly some women think their opinion should mean others lose their choice.

As someone who earlier stated I support a woman's right to chose, I would like to say that no, I don't think it's great that a woman would choose to abort at 40 weeks but if its better than the alternative then it's the better option.

I don't go shouting my opinions from the rooftops but if asked then I would be confident to state my beliefs, certainly nouy for attention. Because I believe women should have autonomy over their own bodies.

Anyone have any stats on late term abortion? The vast majority of abortions are carried out very early on in the pregnancy, a change in law is highly unlikely to result in a sudden surge of women having abortions at 40 weeks.

Let's not forget that abortion to term is an option for medical reasons including cleft lip/palate... If you're against abortion to term then do you think that is justified? Just curious.

Can we also look beyond pregnancy and birth and consider exactly what's happens to women who have to give birth to babies they want? What happens to children who are born unwanted?

People often cite adoption as the magical answer to this but anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that it isn't the case.

Sorry that should say babies they don't want!

PineapplePower
There was a documentary on premature births a few years ago. They were saying that on a whole trend level, outcomes for babies born at 24 weeks were dramatically improving but despite much medical advancement below 23 the odds are still unfavourable. With poorly formed organs, gelatinous skin and the drugs required to foster growth having a high risk of life long physical and possibly mental disability, the chances of a baby born between 23 and 24 are much lower and haven't been improving.

The whole thing touched on the medical ethics of pushing for intensive care at 23 weeks gestation. It was really interesting.

Nobody thinks it's OK to abort a baby just when it's full term.

I do. I think it's ok to terminate a pregnancy at term if the woman no longer wishes to be pregnant.

It’s not as “late as necessary” as the current law stands. No one is agitating to change this afaik.

I am. I believe the law should offer termination at any stage for any reason.

Several other posters on this thread agree, because we believe that forced birth is unethical and misogynistic.

I think it's ok to terminate a pregnancy at term if the woman no longer wishes to be pregnant

If this isn’t a pisstake, I’m curious as to whether you think infanticide is okay? Serious question, especially as there are women who only know they are pregnant as they go into labour.

@Cardsforkittens

I think it's ok to terminate a pregnancy at term if the woman no longer wishes to be pregnant.

I don't believe you. No-one in real life thinks this.

Why not wait until the baby is a week old, that’s when you really know what you have let yourself in for,

I don't believe you. No-one in real life thinks this

Srsly if I was conspiratorially minded, I’d think this was a pro-lifer who wanted to make pro-choice feminists look bad.