.....to suddenly think in future will it be just as unacceptable for a man to dress up as a woman to be funny as it is for s white person to 'dress-up as a black person??

[Foxy333]

I love Panto and enjoy most of it with my kids. However since becoming more aware of Feminism, when I see a man dressed as panto dame with cheesey cliche female voice and sayings...and hilarious comedy breasts.....desperate to be thought beautiful but actually... ha ha ha! really ugly, it just struck me we are laughing at Women. We are supposed to aren't We? Are comedy breasts funny? Was it hilarious when white people used to mock any stereotypical black characteristics? Aren't they the same outdated attitude? Reminds me of carry on films growing up when laughing at young women, ugly women was acceptable but isn't now.

@icannotremember - there is. A lot. And it’s widely credited for making it more normal.

When I grew up I realised that I felt unsettled by a display of the dominant class dressing up as and taking the piss out of a subordinate class. No wonder as a little girl it made me feel uncomfortable > a bunch of men taking the piss out of women HAHAHAHAHA. Aren't they hilarious with their gossip and their tits and their makeup hahahahahahahah my sides.

^^this

Why wonder?
Because it's interesting and relevant to the conversation?

Gosh, hope not op. The world will be completely sterile, devoid of any humour and utterly depressing.

Yorkie bars used to say ‘they’re not for girls!’ and no one got upset about it because they weren’t humourless flannels looking to take offence. It wasn’t so long ago. I miss those days.

It's also traditional for the dashing prince to be played by a lithe young woman, so the cross-dressing is balanced.

Not any more, the principle boy being played by a woman fell out of favour a decade or more ago.
And its nothing to do with po faced killjoy feminists.

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-news/10486457/Curtain-falls-on-traditional-panto-oh-yes-it-does.html

I think there’s is an important distictintion to be made in regards to drag and the fact by and large it is gay men performing it. Men who will have been mocked for being perceived as ‘feminine’, and who are treated as inhuman. Don’t forget these men have been oppressed too. Isn’t drag about reclaiming what they are mocked for by over exaggerating it? I think that’s the big difference between it and black face.

Doesn’t mean there aren’t aspects of drag which I find sexist or uncomfortable. But these seem to be challenged year on year and as a whole it’s become much less sexist in the last five years.

Yorkie bars used to say ‘they’re not for girls!’ and no one got upset about it because they weren’t humourless flannels looking to take offence. It wasn’t so long ago. I miss those days.

It never fails to amaze me that the very people whining about humourless feminists ALWAYS come across as so humourless and grouchy themselves. So little self awareness.

Feminism has become a joke now. There are women who are still treated as property in some countries. Women who cannot show their beauty as it will “tempt” men.

And what are feminists complaining about now? The oppressor class mimicking the characteristics of the class they oppress.

FTFY.

''The "not as bad as" fallacy, also known as the fallacy of relative privation, asserts that:
If something is worse than the problem currently being discussed, then the problem currently being discussed isn't that important at all.''

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

Does that also mean that French and saunders can't gdo the two fat old men comedy sketches any more?

Actually, as a young girl, I HATED the Yorkie ads. Must have been a feminist wet flannel. 😁

I think there’s is an important distictintion to be made in regards to drag and the fact by and large it is gay men performing it.

This is such an important point. It’s almost entirely gay / bi / queer men, and lots of men of colour. In other words, men who have been excluded and oppressed and belittled for not fulfilling masculine stereotypes, men on the ‘fringes’. Drag is a deeply subversive movement which seeks to undermine the idea that any person has to behave in any particular way to be acceptable or worthy of respect and tolerance.

two fat old men comedy sketches any more?

Well of course. After all, white men are members of the oppressed classes, aren’t they? Oh, that’s right.

Are you saying that no white men can be members of oppressed classes? Or have I totally misunderstood?

When I grew up I realised that I felt unsettled by a display of the dominant class dressing up as and taking the piss out of a subordinate class.

Yup. Drag and blacking up are pretty much the same. Drag doesn't "subvert gender stereotypes" at all, it just reinforces them by performing bitchy, vapid "feminity". It wouldn't be funny if your boyfriend did it so why is it suddenly radical because a (usually) gay guy does it on a stage? Gay men are not necessarily women's allies, Fishy. And, I know I could get punched in the face for this opinion if I expressed it in public, but men putting on dresses and makeup and claiming to be exactly the same as women, is not really that far from Rachel Dolezal territory, in my opinion. I do realize that makes me "transphobic" in the eyes of the trans lobby, but I don't agree with their definition.

Userschmoozer, it is perfectly possible to talk about the wrongs or rights of men dressing up as women without making it equivalent to black face because they are not equivalent.

Why make reference to black face? It's not necessary and only serves to show the ignorance of those trying to equate them.

Some feminists have a very narrow view of the victims of sexism and what the issues are. There are many, many issues facing women. One would expect that the most heinous ones are prioritised and highlighted. That doesn't mean the less heinous ones aren't important. With limit on time and effort, the ones that are most harmful shoukd be tackled or at least made more public and raise awareness. But hey, if men dressing up as women is high on the list of the problems facing women all over the world, then let's all prioritise this and spend our time and effort to fighting it. The other problems can wait. Once we deal with that one sufficiently we can then put out minds to the other issues.

Sorry, I should have said straight white men.

Straight white non disabled white me

Robotic, you may be a woman but I suspect you are not black so you won't see any difference between a man dressing up as a woman and Dolezal pretending to be black and taking away opportunities that could have been filled by a real black woman. As a white woman who grew up with white privilege then denying others who did not have her advantages opportunities that she took away.

I kinda agree with you op, I don't get drag queens at all and I do feel that they are mocking women to some extent at least. The panto Dame is different though, we can laugh at 'her' being ugly with ridiculous breasts because she isn't a women, that's the whole point isn't it? If the dame was played by a very unattractive woman who wished to be beautiful it wouldn't be funny at all.

Jesus Christ, I think some people here need to buy a lamp and lighten the fuck up.

“The oppressor class mimicking the characteristics of the class they oppress.”

Opressor? I’ve never felt oppressed by men in pantos! 😂😂

Seriously though, some feminists just downright hate ALL men in general. And think of the smallest things to be up in arms about.

I suggest you buy a MAN sized Kleenex if you’re going to cry about this.

You don't understand class analysis, do you? No wonder so many statements made by other people make no sense to you.

you won't see any difference between a man dressing up as a woman and Dolezal pretending to be black

That's actually not what I wrote, bit I can see how you might think that because when I read my post back it's not very clear. I was comparing trans women to Rachel Dolezal, not dragqueens. And actually trans women do take opportunities away from women. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anger-over-women-s-business-honour-for-cross-dressing-banker-h0gv3l7nw

I’ve never felt oppressed by men in pantos!

Are you playing dumb?

The worlds gone mad, you just can't have fun anymore without someone, somewhere overthinking it.