.....to suddenly think in future will it be just as unacceptable for a man to dress up as a woman to be funny as it is for s white person to 'dress-up as a black person??

[Foxy333]

I love Panto and enjoy most of it with my kids. However since becoming more aware of Feminism, when I see a man dressed as panto dame with cheesey cliche female voice and sayings...and hilarious comedy breasts.....desperate to be thought beautiful but actually... ha ha ha! really ugly, it just struck me we are laughing at Women. We are supposed to aren't We? Are comedy breasts funny? Was it hilarious when white people used to mock any stereotypical black characteristics? Aren't they the same outdated attitude? Reminds me of carry on films growing up when laughing at young women, ugly women was acceptable but isn't now.

My DC think the panto dames are the best bit, they're 7 and 10. A little girl of 3 was giggling very loudly at them too. Are these children anti feminist?

But aintnothin they’re young children, they don’t know any better. They could well laugh at white people dressing up as black people to mock them as well if they saw it - they wouldn’t understand

OP I agree with you

Context is really important here.

Drag is a movement which is rooted in and inescapable from civil rights activism. It was trans women and drag queens who started the stonewall riots - there is a long history of alliance between drag queens, the LGBT community and women’s rights activists. Drag queens aren’t poking fun at women - they are performatively addressing gender stereotyping and subverting ‘masculine’ v ‘feminine’ as a means of challenging these concepts.

Black face or minstrelry is the opposite of this. Blackface was created for the specific purpose of abusing and mocking black people, and disseminating the idea that black people are subhuman, comical, and inferior.

You can’t compare these things unless you’re willing to look into and understand the context from which they spring.

I can't wait to live in this utterly joyless Mumsnet feminist utopia. Ffs unclench and stop looking for offense absolutely everywhere.

‘drag queens aren’t poking fun at women’ in which universe is this?!

Wih my serious academic hat on, I agree with you OP.

However, once I pull the stick out of my bum I like to have a laugh, including at myself. It’s okay to laugh at women, and men, and children. It’s called having a sense of humour. It’s not okay to mock and belittle, but I don’t think panto is doing that. It’s just being silly and having fun. Chill out.

It's also traditional for the dashing prince to be played by a lithe young woman, so the cross-dressing is balanced.

There is slapstick in panto too. It doesn't mean that society endorses violently whacking people on the back of the head with a plank.

Dreads to think where discussion about panto horses/ cows etc will lead to...

I’m looking forward to the panto tomorrow though!

‘drag queens aren’t poking fun at women’ in which universe is this?!

Drag queens ‘mock’ stereotypes of femininity. Unless you think women and feminine stereotypes are one and the same, you should be able to see how that isn’t the same as mocking women.

Drag acts subvert the whole idea that to be ‘woman’ requires boobs / heels / hair etc. It’s a subversive approach to the basic concept of gender stereotypes.

I agree OP but I think it's fine because men are doing it.

If there was a tradition of women dressing up.as freakish stereotypes of men and mocking them I don't think it would be as acceptable.

It was a lesbian who started the Stonewall riots.

Panto is also an extension of the traditional ‘carnival’ concept, where social norms would be turned upside down. So women play the handsome prince (gender subversion and queer narratives) and paupers become kings. Theatre has a rich history of undermining dominant social codes through performance, and panto is a huge part of that tradition.

It was a lesbian who started the Stonewall riots.

I should have included this too, as you’re absolutely right. But alongside Stormé DeLarverie were Marsha P Johnson and Sylvia Rivera and countless others. It was a huge movement of many different groups - gays, lesbians, drag queens, trans women, POC etc etc and that’s why it was so powerful and led to such a seismic shift.

Just a point of clarification, the idea that it was a drag queen or transwoman that started the riots is a false history being pushed by the TRAs, whereas history strongly suggests that it was a black biracial lesbian Storme DeLarverie, who threw the first brick. It’s this kind of appropriation that pisses women, especially lesbians off.

Oh FFS get a life @Foxy333 .

You must lead a blessed life if you get worked up about trivial shit like this!

Another long-standing tradition - excluding the enormous role trans women played in the Stonewall riots from the narrative! But it’s a matter of historical record that they were there.

Marsha P. Johnson, identified as a gay liberation activist, who dressed as a drag queen and never claimed to be trans, or demanded to be called ‘she’. Johnson wasn’t even there on the first night and always denied throwing the first brick. It’s ironic that the TRAs demand that they are called by the pronouns they identify by, while misgendering others.

I didn’t say she was trans. Sylvie Rivera was trans.

They were there, but stop claiming, like so many TRAs do, (no, I’m not calling you one), that they threw the first brick. I’m sick of other people’s history being stolen from them to legitimise the TRA narrative. Stop helping to remove gay and lesbian people’s place in history.

I don't know. I like drag queens. Who they're making fun of I'm not really sure. But I don't think drag and blackface are comparable really... That said, I'm prepared to change my mind if someone makes some sense in explaining why they think they are.

This victim mentality is no good for anyone. When did we all become such a bunch of snowflakes. It’s a pantomime, such a shame that serious issues are not being taken so seriously now that some feminists have thrown woman under the bus so much that any issues raised are now seen as as hysterical as them.

Happy to be called a TRA.

You are literally doing exactly what you’re complaining of - erasing trans women from history.

I accept that you have your own concerns about aspects of the trans movement today, but I think you can validly express those concerns without erasing trans women of colour from a history they were totally instrumental in. It’s possible to have nuance about this. Acknowledging the role of trans women in stonewall doesn’t mean you’re fully supportive of trans rights activism today.

I thought that the Stonewall riots involved drag queens rather than trans people. I know quite a few high profile drag queens and they certainly don’t identify as trans.

I’ve always thought of drag and pantomime dames as rather an affectionate parody than mocking. They’re always strong women and quite often are shown owning businesses or property and being matriarchs and holding power.

Lily Savage, for example, took no prisoners, was a working class matriarch and a ducker and diver who relied on nobody, looked after herself and behaved how she liked.

Even in Mother Goose where the dame wants to be young and beautiful the Dame shows great moral courage and prizes loyalty to her friends higher than she does vanity and is ultimately a heroine.

You are literally doing exactly what you’re complaining of - erasing trans women from history. I have never stated that there weren’t trans people there, but stop manipulating history. Im not going to be made feel guilty about correcting misinformation.