.....to suddenly think in future will it be just as unacceptable for a man to dress up as a woman to be funny as it is for s white person to 'dress-up as a black person??

[Foxy333]

I love Panto and enjoy most of it with my kids. However since becoming more aware of Feminism, when I see a man dressed as panto dame with cheesey cliche female voice and sayings...and hilarious comedy breasts.....desperate to be thought beautiful but actually... ha ha ha! really ugly, it just struck me we are laughing at Women. We are supposed to aren't We? Are comedy breasts funny? Was it hilarious when white people used to mock any stereotypical black characteristics? Aren't they the same outdated attitude? Reminds me of carry on films growing up when laughing at young women, ugly women was acceptable but isn't now.

@Pachyderm1 What a refreshing and sensible voice. Thank you.

I agree. Even as a kid I instinctively felt uncomfortable about this. The “you are po faced it’s abit of fun” is a nonsense argument the victorians used to go to mental asylums to have a good laugh at the patients. People evolve

One of my male sixth formers commented the other day that the idea of a panto dame simply wasn’t acceptable in 2018. I think they were coming from the perspective that it mocks trans people, not women.

But somehow I don’t really see the harm .... the audience is usually ‘in’ on the ‘jokes’ and can be a well-known personality and usually takes a swipe at that as well.

Saying that, Mrs Brown is harmful to my health ....

I could understand your point if it was about comedy acts in India or SE Asia where trans women are recognised as a third sex legally. However in the UK, men dressed as women in panto have only ever mocked women. Hell the role itself was originally designed to keep out female actresses, and that’s why I think it should be removed. Having a visible trans woman on stage is actually good for trans people as it ‘normalizes’ things— like ‘the only gay in the village’ joke did.

I'm not bothered by pantomime dames possibly because I loathe pantomimes and never go but I find drag misogyistic and demeaning, in a way that has nothing to do with my feelings about trans.

Tne line between ‘a bit of fun’ and unacceptable is a fine one - almost every bit of fiction/entertainment requires someone being the butt of a joke or playing on stereotypes ...

Im not going to be made feel guilty about correcting misinformation

I think we both know that this isn’t what’s happening here.

Thankfully I couldn’t care less what others think. I’m now immune to being told I’m not being ‘nice’ or being called derogatory names. I think we both know why TRAs push a false history.

Equating men dressing up as women to white people blacking up indicates shocking ignorance of the issues involved. Both "isms" are bad but their historical context, the issues, dehumanisation, subjugation, etc are different and have different dimension which makes equating them ridiculous.

Moreover, the intersectionality involved should give you pause for thought in terms of what it would mean someone who is black and a woman. Double whammy there. I'm sure a black woman would not equate racism to sexism but I'm sure they intersect for her.

I was born in the early 70s and grew up with men dressing up as women for comedy effect as standard. From Kenny Everett and Dick Emery to the Two Ronnies and etc and so on it was everywhere.

I always felt a bit uncomfortable about it > even as a little girl, I didn't really get the joke and something was unsettling.

When I grew up I realised that I felt unsettled by a display of the dominant class dressing up as and taking the piss out of a subordinate class. No wonder as a little girl it made me feel uncomfortable > a bunch of men taking the piss out of women HAHAHAHAHA. Aren't they hilarious with their gossip and their tits and their makeup hahahahahahahah my sides.

I'm with you OP.

Happy to be a humourless feminist and apparently one from the age of about 6

Marsha P Johnson is on record as saying he didn't have anything to do with the riot as he wasn't there and didn't get there until later that day when it had all kicked off. Started by a woman.

I’m now immune to being told I’m not being ‘nice’ or being called derogatory names

Who called you derogatory names?

"Equating men dressing up as women to white people blacking up indicates shocking ignorance of the issues involved. Both "isms" are bad but their historical context, the issues, dehumanisation, subjugation, etc are different and have different dimension which makes equating them ridiculous."

Fuck me read some history why don't you.
We were PROPERTY not so long ago.
It was legal for our husbands to rape us until 1991!!!

The denial of the struggles of women and girls to be recognised as people is fucking appalling TBH.

And continues all over the world.

In the UK we still struggle with many many issues.

I am not sure why the intersection of racism and sexism is important to you when sexism isn't really much of a thing? So where's the intersection, there is no otehr "ism" to intersect with is there.

Women and girls are murdered all over the world every singel fucking day becasue they are female.

A woman was brutally murdered here by some rich bloke the otehr day he said oh sex game gone wrong she was bang up for it and got 3 years. 3 fucking years so out in 1.5 that is what a womans life is worth in the UK in 2018.

Nothing to see here no sirreee bob women have and always have had it easy they are not and have never been a subordinate class and so it's AOK for men to dress up as women and take the piss out of them because it is NOT the oppressor mocking the oppressed nope no way.

Fucks sake.

I agree, OP. Men dressing up in order to satirize women is offensive.

Feminism has become a joke now. There are women who are still treated as property in some countries. Women who cannot show their beauty as it will “tempt” men.

And what are feminists complaining about now? Panto characters! Unbelievable.

Feminists are more than capable of caring about lots of things at once.

And this is not "now", feminists have been po-faced about men dressing up as women and mocking them for donkeys years.

I didn't like it when I was 6, which was 40 years ago. And I also didn't like it at 16, 26, or 36.

I am quite comfortable with that and immune to accusations of being a humourless bastard, I mean it's hardly a new accusation for women who don't laugh at the bantz is it.

I know it comes as a shock to many, Evemary, but feminists can actually deal with more than one issue at a time. I’m sure you’re doing loads for the victims you’re lamenting over, aren’t you?

Nothingonthetelly, that my be so but factually almost all the post on here are not concerned about women all over the world. Just women in the western world overly exercised about men dressing as women.

The question the OP raised has nothing to do with women all over the world. The atrocities they face are far, far greater than this first world problem about dressing up.

Furthermore it is perfectly fine to raise the issue of men dressing up as women without equating it to racism and assuming that racism can be reduced to a similar issue of men dressing as women.

However, as usual when certain women are challenged, they quickly turn victim, swearing and going awol because they don't like being challenged.

What have you been doing to better the plight of women all over the world? You think dressing up is the biggest issue they face? You think for those women who are non-white that sexism is necessarily the biggest issue they face?

Swear your head off as much as you like. I'm sick of the self-centred approach of some feminist who only pull out the "women all over the world" card to appear virtuous when in fact the things they focus on demonstrate they actually don't understand or give a damn about "women all over the world".

I think it's more likely that men dressing as women for comedic effect will be judged as unacceptable due to pressure from the tra lobby. Like in the emperor's new clothes, we will all have to acknowledge 6ft plus stubbly muscle-bound blokes in dresses as stunning and brave and nothing else. Definitely nothing inherently funny about it at all.

Ah yes, because people dressing up in panto is very threatening to women. 🙄

Actually Cherries that's an good point... I wonder if there is any drag or equivalent tradition in cultures which widely accept and give legal status to a third sex?

Why wonder? If there is a concern for women all over the world, one would expect a level of awareness of other cultures all over the world.

I'm fairly sure that in many non-western cultures cultures, men dressing up as women would not be seen as funny and the men who do this for a laugh would find themselves at the receiving end of extreme physical abuse. Dressing up as women either for a laugh or otherwise is not commonplace in many cultures around the world.

Same experience as @NothingOnTellyAgain. And every time I am reminded of Mrs browns boys I am astounded it's allowed on national television. How can anyone think it's acceptable?