to think there is something seriously wrong with our education system..

[TwinkleToes101]

when teachers are leaving in droves?

Just recently reading about record numbers of newly trained teachers giving up within 5 years (that was me 14 years ago), then on MN today partners having depression/breakdowns and all the posters who teach knew the person in question was a teacher...what the F is going so badly wrong with teaching??

I thought my reasons for leaving were personal: too little me time, too much low-level classroom disruption. Other postgrads I know left as I did because of work load. But don't other professions have high workloads/stresses?

jacks11

I honestly hope that your child does well at the school. The axe that I grind is because of the experiences that I have had with private schools and their inability to do anything about children with SEND or child that misbehaves or the child that lost their parents. Happy to take the money but not happy to deal with the issues.

I know that not all private schools are like that in the same way that I know that not all state schools are rubbish. Hell there are even some good academies out there.

noble That's really interesting. DD13's report arrived yesterday and it is honestly the most useless pile of numbers I've ever seen. How on earth can you predict, from a term's performance in Y8, what a child is likely to get in Y11?! Particularly when two of the named teachers have been off sick for most of the last half term. The PE one cracked me up - her "working at" grade is low, but outside school she's just received a Student of the Year award in her chosen sport. Pointless nonsense. And the numbers for her academic subjects bear no resemblance to the summaries her teachers gave at parents' evening.

There are plenty who scape through teacher training. We used to regularly fail students as they weren't up to standard... then the uni would move them on. I have come across several who should never have passed...

I have come across a few (all in the same school) who have taught good and outstanding lessons with the observations to prove it and then had one awful lesson with appalling behaviour from the children and have had their placements terminated on the strength of that.

clairedelalune
I agree on MATs not being a good move for structuring an education system but I would want to point out that not all MATs are the big takeover types.

There's a lot of schools near me who've had to become academies because it was a case of become an academy or risk having a forced takeover. Many strong schools decided they'd convert and then form their own small local MATs. They are very different beasts to the high profile names.

Much as I have an ideological objection to academies and the carving up of education, I do feel the need to point out that MAT/academy doesn't automatically mean bad.

What you have now is a group of students who are not interested or can’t do the subjects being taught and there is nothing keeping them in school.
Nor is there any reason for them to behave.

I may agree with the first part, but definitely not the second. Look back a few generations - kids weren't any more interested in schoolwork across the board, yet they knew they needed to behave or there would be consequences which would be followed through and parents would support. Which is not the case a lot of the time now. Most kids in the UK don't appreciate the value of their (accessible and free) education. That is a reason they should behave. As is showing basic respect for others and not behaving like an entitled and self absorbed individual.

I left teaching in the UK for many of the reasons mentioned already. I have a number of friends who teach in different countries, and are much happier and better respected as professionals. It comes down to attitude. Of the general public, of the policy makers, of the kids in the classroom, of their parents.

Multi academy trusts. They are the problem as take so much money from the schools. The average secondary school could employ about 10-15 extra teachers for the amount which they pay to be part of mats.

Where is the evidence for that? because everything I have read is that they take a lot less than councils did.

Madmozzie

The 2 brothers I knew did have a reason to behave because if they got suspended or expelled they would miss the lessons they loved.
Now I was trying to point out that there is nothing in school that would interest them enough to not miss it if they weren’t there.

Also in school there was a lot of researching different career paths so people who wanted to be plumbers/electricians/accountants/hairdressing knew what they needed to work at to get into their chosen career.

Now all that seems to be pushed is A levels and university without any idea of what career a pupil might be interested in and even whether a university degree let alone A levels and 17 GCSEs are necessary.

I should say that both brothers passed the 11+ and got into the local grammar school.

Older one went for a year but realised the Grammar school was more for becoming solicitors, accountants etc and not what he wanted to do which was plumbing.

His brother passed the 11+ but turned down his place and both went to the local secondary modern because of the non academic subjects that they taught.

Violent children cannot be excluded automatically.

This is what has broken me this term. I am still expected to teach the child who has left me with visible bruises.

It is absurd, you would not be expected to do this in other normal circumstances. Have anything to do with your attacker. It is the same with girls who have been sexually assulted in schools, by boys, I am hearing this in a primary level too . They are expected to share a classroom and be near their attacker.

It all starts right in early years too. The government under funding their ‘free’ entitlement and not allowing nurseries to charge the extra costs. Parents already feel cross when extra costs are added on for meals etc because then it isn’t free. But actually by not wanting to pay - government or parents - the quality of early years goes down as the extra money isn’t there to invest in the children.

That then just follows on into school and education isn’t respected in the way it should be.

'Violent children cannot be excluded automatically.

This is what has broken me this term. I am still expected to teach the child who has left me with visible bruises'

We have a child in dds school who clearly has some issues but has been violent to several children and is still there. Mine has SEN and ended up scared to go. :(

However, I do not believe you can apply a business model to education. Part of what is going wrong with education is that children have become units of data, rather than individuals with their own quirks, strengths and weaknesses.
On one hand, I totally agree with your point about the one-size-fits-all approach.
On another hand, there is probably something that schools can learn from business practices when it comes to very basic financial management/ forecasting.

I am an expert in finance (and financial management), not in education management. Out of interest, I looked briefly at the accounts of a local primary (average class size 29.8) and a local prep (classes of 10-12). After allowing for the size, of course, the primary spends significantly more on admin staff (I wonder whether this is actually the OFSTED compliance cost), catering and facilities / premises maintenance. The spend on materials per pupil is comparable, but the prep seems to be much better in terms of what they provide for the cost. For the primary school, their defined benefit pension plan seems to be a sinkhole, posting actuarial losses for a couple of years in a row due to falling interest rates. I was also surprised to see that salaries are comparable (actually higher in the state primary), for some reason I thought private schools pay considerably more.
I remember reading recently about a low-cost private school opening this year for around £3K in annual fees (not in London though). While this looks a bit too tight, I just mocked up a simple business plan for a hypothetical school using 20 pupils per class, state school salaries and private school teaching provision / admin costs / ratios / rates. Balances out on £5K per head funding, turns out a nice profit on £6K per head. With Drama, Art, Music and Singapore maths.

Well teachers get paid very poorly. You get what you pay for. Education is no different. Parents need to take responsibility and either go private altogether or donate a reasonable amount to their schools as a form office oayment.

Well teachers get paid very poorly. You get what you pay for.

Can you explain a little more please?

I think my pay is okay. It is not low pay that would make me leave teaching. It is not even the lack of funds for glue sticks. It is not the marking and planning.

It is the lack of funding and support for SEN. It is the violent children who are not excluded and I’m expected to teach somehow while they kick, bite and punch me - and also teach (and be held accountable for the results of) the other 29!

Parents need to take responsibility and either go private altogether or donate a reasonable amount to their schools as a form office oayment.

But aren't all the funds ring-fenced? The MAT described DC primary school as "sitting on pots of money", it's very under-subscribed but having an extension built. Support staff have been cut (falling roll and budget cuts).

When I trained bobbin in 1991, PGCEs were pass or fail and no one had or took MAsand my DH got accepted on to a maths PGCE with a 3rd . So, I don't think those are the issues. I do think the movement to schools as providers has actually been damaging in many cases.

Agree. It was pass and fail in 2004 too. Also a low 2ii in Maths or Physics is still hard to achieve. Also they would just be 2iis.
It is also not so much the academic ability of teaching either. It is important but their is a knack to it which doesn't involve quantum mechanics.

@silvercuckoo the reality is that many private schools are closing. Small prep schools have been particularly hard hit.

Earlier this week my 9 year old’s class and one other class were put together to watch a DVD. It was turned off after 10 minutes due to the noise the kids were making. Even with teachers present. When I was that age, sometimes the whole school was put together to watch a film with only 1 or 2 adults sitting in - and we watched it without fuss all the way through. Why can’t kids these days do that?

This. I had this this week too. We had two hours where we had to do things off timetable while we waited for Christmas dinner. So films or listening to music. We had a vote for a film and because the others didn't like it. They disrupted, were rude, criticised me. They were just generally ungrateful. When we put music one, they all moaned at whoever picked the song. Every twenty seconds it was put this song on. They had no attention span. The silly boys then started running around hitting each other with their PE kits. I was so stressed.

I think I would just have rather taught proper lessons. They are just too ungrateful.

@silvercuckoo - I love your analysis. I've always accused the state sector of haemorrhaging money!
With respect to the qualifications, perhaps the problem is too much emphasis on specialist knowledge. 20 years ago, you could get into teaching without a degree. My maths teacher (who was a long standing, highly effective teachers esp of SEN groups) had no degree. Who needs a first to teach Y9 algebra?

In the desperation to professionalise teaching, the unions have been pushing for higher and higher prof qualifications, yet as every teacher knows, the number of degrees a NQT has does not give an indication of how long they stay in teaching or how effective they are as a teacher. Seems to me, high-level interpersonal skills should feature much more highly on entry - perhaps we should be recruiting social workers to teach physics??

No, that isn't what I meant and I wouldn't like it to be read that way. I can't speak for science but one of the noticeable issues in English is, as I sadi, in an earlier post, the increasing spoon feeding and anti intellectualism in teaching, in part driven by the low qualifications.

I don't believe teachers had no degrees 20 years ago : what you mean is some of them had teaching degrees, or possibly form before that, teaching certs. they were clever people and highly trained. Fewer people wnet to uni back then, after all.

What I meant in my post was just to counter the idea that MAs were or are the way forward. A good first degree in the subject taught, or a closely related one, is essential. The worst English teachers I know are, with the best will in the world, just not very bright. And so they are floored by anything new or challenging. And they don't seem to like their subject.

The permises are probably better in the first place in the private school silver and not decaying 60s blocks which need constant trouoble shooting. In the provate sector now buildings often spring up which have been sponsored by geneorus alumni.

The salaries may well be lower in the private school becuae a) fewer sataff b) younger staff/ The state school may well have more experienced and older staff on their books who will be paid more. Private school teachers are not paid significantly more , always. Salalry bills are always huge in schools and the government has not helped that recently with increased pension contributions not being funded.

I am not disputing some schools are poorly managed but we cannot spin the chronic underfunding of education.

In my DH's school the huge admin staff costs would not necessarily show up on the figures you would garner, as they are paid by a separate 'charitable trust'.

That was meant to say private sector and new buildings!

Oh, and also, in private schools, SEN interventions are almost entirely funded by separate (lofty!) payments from parents , in addition to standard fees. That helps!